Stupid question on lie angle

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I was talking to Jimmy K about lie angles and got confused.

Let's say you put some tape on the sole of your 7 iron to check the lie angle.

After a few shots, the markings are toward the toe of the club.

My conclusion is the following:

Marks on toe = plane angle at impact too upright for the club = more upright lie angle needed

Jim says that:

Marks on toe = flatter lie angle needed

Which is correct?

(Assume orthodox swing, impact on sweetspot, etc.)
 
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Off the top of my head I would say the clubs are too upright so you would want them flatter. NEO (non-expert opinion)
 
He may mean that you need a flatter swing for that particular club to acheive a more center of the tape. If your swung is optimal though all things considered, you need a club that is more upright to combat the toe contact. The ball flight would be slicing to the right on this toe contact (if the cluface is square at impact)
 

ggsjpc

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solid

If you didn't hit the shot in the sweetspot, no conclusion can be drawn. If it hit the sweetspot and their was a mark on the toe, it could be two things. Lie angle to flat or plane line too far left/plane angle too vertical.
 
He may mean that you need a flatter swing for that particular club to acheive a more center of the tape. If your swung is optimal though all things considered, you need a club that is more upright to combat the toe contact. The ball flight would be slicing to the right on this toe contact (if the cluface is square at impact)
Agreed. Marks on toe = flatter swing and/or more upright lie angle needed
 
If it hit the sweetspot and their was a mark on the toe, it could be two things. Lie angle too flat or plane line too far left/plane angle too vertical.
Agreed. So solution is more upright lie angle and/or flatter swing plane angle and/or swing more to the right field.
 
Yes you need a "golf club" that is more upright or a flatter "swing".

Of course there are more variables depending on where the ball goes and if the mark is on the front edge or back edge of club. Ie a golfer could turn the club closed and get a strike on the toe, but it would be the front edge of the toe. A golfer sometimes does this if they have had clubs that are too flat for them and slice with a on plane swing and square face at impact so they turn it over and down hitting a hook.
 
I've seen a lot of bad fittings over the years.

Guys get put in gear that is way too upright because of their steep swing. The upright prescription acts like a band aid for the moment, but the teacher didn't fix the root.

In my many years at this stuff, I haven't found many folks that haven't been within 2 degrees of standard either way.
 
They have to look at many variables including ball flight and sometimes have to make a connection of why they are getting data that they are getting. It seems easy for them to go way upright to fix a slice. I have a better remedy...and it starts with a twist and ends with an away. Lag the sweetspot dudes and dudettes. That does help the steeper swings too that cmart was talking about!
 
I've seen a lot of bad fittings over the years.

Guys get put in gear that is way too upright because of their steep swing. The upright prescription acts like a band aid for the moment, but the teacher didn't fix the root.

In my many years at this stuff, I haven't found many folks that haven't been within 2 degrees of standard either way.

I got fitted to 4 upright as an open-clubface flipper a few years back...I had to negotiate with the guy to bend em back!

Eeeeeeeee...

(I am 5'10 for what it's worth)
 

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Most fitters fit way too early and don't teach enough first. Of course each case is individual, but they use fitting as a cover-up for their lack of teaching skills. There are also 'great teachers' who think they can teach anyone with any club. No true!

There needs to be a balance struck here.

Most lie reads are misread, so the data is not read as the total picture, rather just the lie mark on the sole read. It needs to be inter related into the total picture of the golfer, not just a raw lie mark.
 
Most fitters fit way too early and don't teach enough first. Of course each case is individual, but they use fitting as a cover-up for their lack of teaching skills. There are also 'great teachers' who think they can teach anyone with any club. No true!

There needs to be a balance struck here.

Most lie reads are misread, so the data is not read as the total picture, rather just the lie mark on the sole read. It needs to be inter related into the total picture of the golfer, not just a raw lie mark.

Steve,

You have mentioned a few times on the forum how lie marks are often misread. Do you think you could give a few guidelines on how to correctly interpret marks made from a lie board?

Thanks.
 
another question on lie angle:
i pull/draw most all my irons-even wedges. i prob tend to swing flat and underplane some. lie angle fitting would suggest me being roughly three degrees flat. so my question is do i flatten the clubs, or work with the swing first?
thanks
 

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
Yes Please.

Basically, the ie mark position alone will not tell all.

The shape and angle of the mark must be addressed otherwise the face angle is not being addressed.

Also the best fitters will not read a mark when the ball was hit prior to the lie board. This seems simple although it is not that easy for most amateurs.
 
Basically, the ie mark position alone will not tell all.

The shape and angle of the mark must be addressed otherwise the face angle is not being addressed.

Also the best fitters will not read a mark when the ball was hit prior to the lie board. This seems simple although it is not that easy for most amateurs.

thank you steve
 
Basically, the ie mark position alone will not tell all.

The shape and angle of the mark must be addressed otherwise the face angle is not being addressed.

Also the best fitters will not read a mark when the ball was hit prior to the lie board. This seems simple although it is not that easy for most amateurs.

surely on a correct strike you SHOULD hit the ball before the ground?
 
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