Hip Power

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@ spktho ... so a scientific study has 20 golfers of various abilities and tests them. Then somebody on this forum complains that the study didn't use somebody from the tour... as if the study is voided because they didn't use a favorite tour golfer and thus is inadequate for that duffer. Some people just can't be satisfied.. even with their decrepit golfswing and sorry game.

Pretty much sums it up for the "average" person/golfer when looking at a scientific study. I found the abstract you presented here very interesting.

It would be very interesting to have a large sample of touring pros studied with all the most recent kinematic/kinetic scientific modalities (force plates, 6degree of freedom 3d, surface emg...) and see the similarities and differences throughout their swings.
 

TeeAce

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Not at all. Just saying I often read that a study of this elite player has told us X and Y, and then everyone is thinking about how to replicate it. Someone scientifically studies Hogan and finds out his hips had a certain move, well maybe that was part of the solution to the hook? And we don't get the information on the players studied, just the numbers and graphs...and then it is implied that ALL elite players do this.

Why it has to be elite player, why elite shot is not what we are looking for?

It tells how we all, including me, are so oriented to follow those best PLAYERS and too often only accepts their shots as proving something. I've seen some 2-5 index players shooting so marvelous shots, that if those guys could repeat it all the time and got decent short game, they would be winning a lot on tours.

So based on that I've seen few hundred different shots, good and bad ones, and can tell there is no one way to create enough speed to the club head or to shoot the great shot. Also many ways to get one great same time with straightness. The real science will some day find out why the best ball strikers can repeat it 9,5 out of 10 when others maybe 7 of 10. I'm one of those searching the answer, but for the moment lot of answers, but still much more open questions found.
 
Surely you must have found some common denominators Tee? If you haven't maybe there are none, ie it's just really individual and what works for one guy doesn't for another.
 

art

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Studies and tests I have been involved in show that any golfers (elite or otherwise) lower body 'dynamic balance' is enhanced IF the left hip counterclockwise angular velocity (or its joint internal rotation) during the downswing (prior to impact) exceeds the counterpart right hip activity. The difficult task is to find for each golfer, the location of the 'screw axis' of the pelvis that best balances the overall bodies dynamics.
 

TeeAce

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Surely you must have found some common denominators Tee? If you haven't maybe there are none, ie it's just really individual and what works for one guy doesn't for another.

For sure I have.. and also already seen that whenever I find something common, next week someone comes here and shows there is still another way ;D

One of our coders made one graph as a joke and it was total energy, and really it was a joke first and he had he's own way to calculate somehow together speeds with some kind of dividers and other functions. He didn't even tell me what they were. The funny thing is that it seems to have strong correlation to the club head speed and will be interesting to continue with that idea.

Whatever, at this moment it seems that it doesn't matter so much when you create speed to one part of your body, but total amount seems to be more important as far as we talk only about speed. When we start to include the direction to that, it seems they got their value and it has correlation to the rate of closing and hand/ club head path crossing points. This is what I see today, next week can again change everything.
 
Why it has to be elite player, why elite shot is not what we are looking for?

It tells how we all, including me, are so oriented to follow those best PLAYERS and too often only accepts their shots as proving something. I've seen some 2-5 index players shooting so marvelous shots, that if those guys could repeat it all the time and got decent short game, they would be winning a lot on tours.

So based on that I've seen few hundred different shots, good and bad ones, and can tell there is no one way to create enough speed to the club head or to shoot the great shot. Also many ways to get one great same time with straightness. The real science will some day find out why the best ball strikers can repeat it 9,5 out of 10 when others maybe 7 of 10. I'm one of those searching the answer, but for the moment lot of answers, but still much more open questions found.

Good point and I agree.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
I agree - very good point, Tapio. In my world what should matter is repeatability and consistency first of all. Macroscale patterns that guarantee the above.

Cheers
 
Studies and tests I have been involved in show that any golfers (elite or otherwise) lower body 'dynamic balance' is enhanced IF the left hip counterclockwise angular velocity (or its joint internal rotation) during the downswing (prior to impact) exceeds the counterpart right hip activity. The difficult task is to find for each golfer, the location of the 'screw axis' of the pelvis that best balances the overall bodies dynamics.

That sounds very interesting. I would love to hear more or read about these studies.
 
The difficult task is to find for each golfer, the location of the 'screw axis' of the pelvis that best balances the overall bodies dynamics.

Art,

Is it possible to consider this by itself or do do have to take into account where the lead arm/club is (Lining up the club for impact) also?
 

art

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Art,

Is it possible to consider this by itself or do do have to take into account where the lead arm/club is (Lining up the club for impact) also?


Mike, two research references that could help you are (1) a series of papers on 'Hip Velocity" characteristics during the golf swing by Dr. H Gulgin, (starting with her thesis), and (2) "Three Dimensional Kinematic Model......instantaneous screw axis theory"A.S Vena, another interesting thesis.

From these, and other dynamic balance related research papers, I have concluded that every golfer, and in fact every swing produces an imbalance of forces during the downswing that must be minimized to result in an acceptable golf shot. Some of these significant imbalances are the centripetal forces that develop from the changing angular velocities of the pelvis, the torso the shoulder girdles, and of course the much published and understood 100 plus pounds along the driver shaft around club to ball contact. Since, with the exception of the rotation of the pelvis, all other centripetal forces are 'in front' of the golfer, the only chance to counter these disturbances is to develop pelvic centripetal forces that face backwards behind the golfer. In my opinion, that characteristic has a chance to develop ONLY if the predominant 'screw axis' of rotation, at least until ball contact is in the vicinity of the right hip joint. Of course this is very sensitive to body shape, weight distribution etc., but the lower body dynamic stability margins are enhanced with this pelvic axis in/near the right hip.
Hope this is clear, and helps, and to complete the answer to your question, this is needed during the entire downswing, and completely independent of and specific lead arm/club position etc. In summary, every golfer needs positive dynamic stability margin, especially from the lower body, or else natural, instinctive, involuntary reflex actions will over-ride the intentions of a good golf swing to satisfy the higher priority human body stability and survival dynamic requirements.
 
Art, would having a shorter left leg (~3/8") have any affect on the location of the screw axis (for a right handed swing)?
 
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SteveT

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Mike, two research references that could help you are (1) a series of papers on 'Hip Velocity" characteristics during the golf swing by Dr. H Gulgin, (starting with her thesis), and (2) "Three Dimensional Kinematic Model......instantaneous screw axis theory"A.S Vena, another interesting thesis.

From these, and other dynamic balance related research papers, I have concluded that every golfer, and in fact every swing produces an imbalance of forces during the downswing that must be minimized to result in an acceptable golf shot.
........................

In summary, every golfer needs positive dynamic stability margin, especially from the lower body, or else natural, instinctive, involuntary reflex actions will over-ride the intentions of a good golf swing to satisfy the higher priority human body stability and survival dynamic requirements.

art ... Obviously, there are two states of balance in the golfswing -- static balance and dynamic balance. The nature of the forces in these two states are resolved underfoot as GRFs - Ground Reaction Forces - as measured with Force Plates.

Can you comment on GRFs as they affect the "positive dynamic stability margin" so necessary for a good golf swing? Thanks.
 
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SteveT

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Here's hoping that Brian's new "What I Teach" series will address the role of the hips in more detail, particularly how his "Business" manipulation affects the body action.
 
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SteveT

Guest
Anybody know the whereabouts of "art"... or does he come and go like our mysterious "mandrin"..??!!!!

We seek him here,we seek him there,
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere!
Is he in heaven? Is he in hell?
Where is that damn elusive Pimpernel!
He gives the Frenchies nothing but frustration
Popping in and out each week!
Spoiling every lovely execution
LA! What cheek!
 
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