Understanding my 'big miss': flightscope data

wulsy said:

Thanks. What about in the take away when his weight goes into the toe?

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Some people are just more comfortable using the ground earlier. It may be to offset his inward hand path, or vice versa. Maybe he's trying to start it right and that helps him. Maybe his swing is so fast that he doesnt have time for a transition so he does it in the back swing. Maybe hes getting ahead of his armswing. It's very hard to say why people do what they do until you dig a little further than just video.

Like the ideas. Here's another, maybe because he want to hit down on it? Possible?

Feel versus Real with the Video Lies caveat.
So Geoff says he is lifting the club to set the wrist cock, but it’s hard to see any wrist cock. What I see is tension, big time. P1050948 go frame by frame and look closely and you will see the right thumb visible on top of the in the take away. That’s a clue to a grip problem, and a right hand dominant action.


In the backswing the club fans way inside and the left arm runs into the chest. Backswing stops and then the hands move up to a steeper downswing, which results in block to resist the hook. Poster asked how he could get the backswing more vertical. I think that Manzella video Soft Draw Pattern would show exactly how to do that.
Finally, it just looks to me (amateur observer) like Geoff is too bent over. Looks like this is to fit his stance to the length and lie angle of his club. He is a big strong guy. A little taller stance might be worth experimentation.

Do you hit it odd the hosel at times? And do you do anything leftie?

Thanks for all the advice. much appreciated.

Kevin Shields said:

Arms hang out at address and weight flows to the left toe before backswing ends and hands go to much in. I suspect there's issues with your grip based on the follow through but can't tell. The weight continuing to go out to the left toes is an indicator to be you're trying to block it with your arms extended to not hook it.

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Remedy: let arms hang vertically at address?
Remedy: ensure hands go straight back (without creating pop-out)?

I wonder if weight on toes of left foot is a sign of insufficient pivot/rotation.

Kevin Shields said:

Some people are just more comfortable using the ground earlier. It may be to offset his inward hand path, or vice versa. Maybe he's trying to start it right and that helps him. Maybe his swing is so fast that he doesnt have time for a transition so he does it in the back swing. Maybe hes getting ahead of his armswing. It's very hard to say why people do what they do until you dig a little further than just video.

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I am trying to start it straight and keep it straight.

softconsult said:

Feel versus Real with the Video Lies caveat.
So Geoff says he is lifting the club to set the wrist cock, but it’s hard to see any wrist cock. What I see is tension, big time. P1050948 go frame by frame and look closely and you will see the right thumb visible on top of the in the take away. That’s a clue to a grip problem, and a right hand dominant action.

In the backswing the club fans way inside and the left arm runs into the chest. Backswing stops and then the hands move up to a steeper downswing, which results in block to resist the hook. Poster asked how he could get the backswing more vertical. I think that Manzella video Soft Draw Pattern would show exactly how to do that.
Finally, it just looks to me (amateur observer) like Geoff is too bent over. Looks like this is to fit his stance to the length and lie angle of his club. He is a big strong guy. A little taller stance might be worth experimentation.

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Remedy: reduce tension and grip more lightly?
Remedy: get right thumb on left hand side of the grip?
Remedy: keep working on wrist cock
Remedy: more upright at address

Will post a video of grip this afternooon.

DCgolf said:

Do you hit it odd the hosel at times? And do you do anything leftie?

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Occassional shank. The only thing I do left handed is eat with a knife and fork.

Lindsey Newman said:

An increase in angle of attack?

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This could be the measurable which you need to be able influence.

Getting the grip right should handle :
Remedy: reduce tension and grip more lightly?
Remedy: get right thumb on left hand side of the grip?
Remedy: keep working on wrist cock

Don't know what other think, but I wrist cock kind of takes care of itself.

I would close you a lot at the address and set the club much earlier inside. Just my 2 cents

softconsult said:

Getting the grip right should handle :
Remedy: reduce tension and grip more lightly?
Remedy: get right thumb on left hand side of the grip?
Remedy: keep working on wrist cock

Don't know what other think, but I wrist cock kind of takes care of itself.

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It probably does for many/most but not for me.

DCgolf said:

I would close you a lot at the address and set the club much earlier inside. Just my 2 cents

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Translation/more info required. Do you suggest I try a more closed stance at address? What do you mean by 'set the club more inside earlier'?

I must admit I'm really interested in this thread/Geoff's swing. I'd love to hear some more solutions. It looks like his very flat arm swing in the backswing is the main source of his problems in terms of video. In terms of FS data, it seems that his inside path is what bothers him. Maybe we need a face on video Geoff.

Will do.

It's not just the inside path, its the occasional very closed club face that, in conjunction with the inside path, gets me in trouble.

I wonder if the flat arm swing and the inside path are associated with each other?

My VSP for the seven-iron hovers between 50* and 55*...Is that part of the puzzle?

you close the shoulders, get an automatic look at inside, set on the heels a bit, and set your wrists MUCH earlier. Your swing is what I call too "locked up". Needs much more independence of the arms and hands. So all your motion is out with the body because you have no independence of the arms, hands and club. Line up 20 balls on a tee, and walk down the line hitting them, no pause just a wrist cock and go

reason i ask about left handed is i see this move a lot in lefties playing rightie...

Major loss of the tushline combined with early extension.You don't even need video to see that,you can eye ball it.

I think launch monitors are a fantastic tool but you still need to see the swing with your eyes to pick up technical faults.

Rain and bad light prevented outdoor practice today, so was confined to the lounge room.

I practiced/rehearsed three things: grip, stance and wrist cock.

Grip: I tried for a weaker right hand. The problem I fell into was trying to hook my right pinkie around the middle knuckle of my right hand forefinger. In effect, my left pinky was sitting on top of the other finger. I think i was trying to get the 'lock' you get in the interlock grip via an overlap grip.
Here is a pic of my old grip (note the pinky on top):


Here is a pic of my new grip with the stronger right hand:


New grip with pinky in between:


At the moment I remain unsure of what to do with the right pinkie...does it just rest against the right hand fingers?

Stance: aimed for arm hang, more upright position. In effect the hands get lower and closer to the body. A small amount of wrist cock is now evident at address. Here are three pics:






Wrist cock: I think the arm hang and wrist cock at address makes it easier to get the club going straight back (arm hang) and up (wrist cock).

Look forward to hearing your comments/feedback and hitting some balls when the weather improves.

I am sure the instructors will critique your grip. To me that first picture explains a lot about your swing and your reference to cocking.
I would say new grip is a good step, but not quite there. Don't feel bad. In my first and only lesson with Brian, we spent about 3o minutes on grip and he said I started out with a pretty good grip. A lot of focus and precision involved in how to get the grip under the heel pad and in the fingers correctly. He's got a grip video out there somewhere. Google search for it.

Looks to me like you are not getting it quite enough in the fingers. Looks like perhaps you are gripping it too far out toward the butt of the club. This can affect getting in the fingers of the left hand. Once you have a grip habit, it's hard to break. In #2 and #3 your right hand is too weak and your left thumb is too on top of the grip. You mention stronger grip, but right hand is very weak.

That posture , to me, looks way better, more athletic, than the posture in your swing videos.

In the last 2 pics above your arms are definitely too close to your body. This will make it difficult to get the arms going where they should relative to the body turn in the backswing and also make it difficult to get good impact positions. I would suggest moving them further away and using this with a slight postural change to balance off your weight, which seems to much in the toes.

Contrary to what's "in" at the moment, probably a lot of your swing tendencies are stemming from your set up.

softconsult said:

Looks to me like you are not getting it quite enough in the fingers. Looks like perhaps you are gripping it too far out toward the butt of the club. This can affect getting in the fingers of the left hand. Once you have a grip habit, it's hard to break. In #2 and #3 your right hand is too weak and your left thumb is too on top of the grip. You mention stronger grip, but right hand is very weak.

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I am working on the assumption that a strong-ish left and weak-ish right is a pretty sound combination.

Obviously some more thought and effort needs occur. I grip the club according to the slicefixer approach...which is about as 'finger-based' as gets (at least with the left hand).

Yes, I have a tendency to grip the club too high (i.e. on the butt of the club). Good observation.

So if my right hand is too weak, that means it is rolled to far the left???? Looks like I may have over-corrected.

I will aim to get comfortable with my left thumb on the right-hand side of the grip and my right thumb on the left side of the grip.

wulsy said:

In the last 2 pics above your arms are definitely too close to your body.

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I tend to agree...looks like an over-correction.

So if my right hand is too weak, that means it is rolled to far the left????

Yes. The very old tip is to align the V's made by your thumb creases.

I will bet that if, at set up you just did a little bit of left hip foward and slight tilt right you
would find it easy to get the right hand on there in a better position. Think about what happens
to your alignment when you have the right hand on there very weak. Opens the shoulders.

This is an interesting thread because you have the Flightscope envy),and the Camera. We can
follow your progress, if you choose to share as you go.

softconsult said:

I will bet that if, at set up you just did a little bit of left hip foward and slight tilt right you
would find it easy to get the right hand on there in a better position. Think about what happens
to your alignment when you have the right hand on there very weak. Opens the shoulders.

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Got it.

softconsult said:

This is an interesting thread because you have the Flightscope envy),and the Camera. We can
follow your progress, if you choose to share as you go.

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With the quality of advice I am receiving, I am in this for the long (and publicly visible) haul. Hopefully others can benefit as well.