How does Trevino not hook

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matt

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The easiest clubface to hit a fade from is...closed. Think about it: just rotate and hold off the face and there's a fade. Duval, Beem, O'Grady all do it.
 
Well I went out to the range and hit like Trevino for an hour, then played nine. I really really liked the ball flight, especially on long irons. I've never really hit power fades before- usually my fades are fluffy and weak and that's why I always try to hit a draw. 200 yard power fade with the 3-iron was neat. Interestingly, I was backing up 7 irons on the range greens, which I've never done before. The contact was really cool and may be something that I stick with on irons. However, with the driver I was having trouble trying to hit the ba-jesus out the ball and hold on for dear life to keep from hooking. I did manage to hit some power fades, but my misses were hard hooks. Was Trevino a long-baller?

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Lee Trevino was always a good player. In the Marines, he was one of the best players in the service, but he was no match for the best player in the service—the VERY straight-hitting Orville Moody. Lee was always bothered by a hook, and as much as he tried for so-called 'conventional' mechanics, they did nothing to stop his hook. So, he went in search of the game's premier FADER of the ball—as the well as the very best ball-striker, maybe of all-time—Ben Hogan.

Lee snuck into the grounds near the "little 9" at Shady Oaks Country Club in Fort Worth, Texas, where Mr. Hogan practiced. It was there that Trevino became convinced that Hogan controlled shots with his BODY, and he would have to learn to fade the ball with that in mind.

Trevino learned that if he aimed way left, took it back as out and up as possible, and what he called "moved on the ball," he could hit a nice little push-fade.

This 'move on the ball" was nothing more than what The Golfing Machine calls "hip slide" or AXIS TILT. Trevino's key thought in making this move was to get his right watch-pocket—near his right hip bone—PAST THE BALL prior to impact. This big move allowed Trevino to get his hands to the ball and, like I like to say, "HIT THE BOX."

If you have enough forward lean at impact—and this can really only be done with an arched left wrist—you will have enough of an OPEN FACE at impact AND separation to hit the ball left-to-right.

Interestingly, Trevino employed the "Doyle-Manzella Style" full roll with a flat left wrist.

Many in Golfing Machine circles, including Chuck Evans and Ted Fort, think this "over roll" will HAVE TO cause hooks. But, at the "Three G.O.L.F. Guys and You" golf school held a few weeks ago, I showed—to Ted Fort's amazement—how to hit Trevino-like fades with the so-called over roll.

Ted is an excellent ball-striker as a hitter with angled hinge action, and he formerly was a hooker with a type of full roll that was obviosly missing a KEY piece of the Trevino-Manzella puzzle:

ENOUGH forward lean and ENOUGH Axis-Tilt to have an OPEN ENOUGH clubface...

The REAL TRICK to Lee Buck Trevino's success!

;)
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by brianman


Ted is an excellent ball-striker as a hitter with angled hinge action, and he formerly was a hooker with a type of full roll that was obviosly missing a KEY piece of the Trevino-Manzella puzzle:

ENOUGH forward lean and ENOUGH Axis-Tilt to have an OPEN ENOUGH clubface...

The REAL TRICK to Lee Buck Trevino's success!

;)

LOL...is that why i still fade the ball?
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Lee Trevino was always a good player. In the Marines, he was one of the best players in the service, but he was no match for the best player in the service—the VERY straight-hitting Orville Moody. Lee was always bothered by a hook, and as much as he tried for so-called 'conventional' mechanics, they did nothing to stop his hook. So, he went in search of the game's premier FADER of the ball—as the well as the very best ball-striker, maybe of all-time—Ben Hogan.

Lee snuck into the grounds near the "little 9" at Shady Oaks Country Club in Fort Worth, Texas, where Mr. Hogan practiced. It was there that Trevino became convinced that Hogan controlled shots with his BODY, and he would have to learn to fade the ball with that in mind.

Trevino learned that if he aimed way left, took it back as out and up as possible, and what he called "moved on the ball," he could hit a nice little push-fade.

This 'move on the ball" was nothing more than what The Golfing Machine calls "hip slide" or AXIS TILT. Trevino's key thought in making this move was to get his right watch-pocket—near his right hip bone—PAST THE BALL prior to impact. This big move allowed Trevino to get his hands to the ball and, like I like to say, "HIT THE BOX."

If you have enough forward lean at impact—and this can really only be done with an arched left wrist—you will have enough of an OPEN FACE at impact AND separation to hit the ball left-to-right.

Interestingly, Trevino employed the "Doyle-Manzella Style" full roll with a flat left wrist.

Many in Golfing Machine circles, including Chuck Evans and Ted Fort, think this "over roll" will HAVE TO cause hooks. But, at the "Three G.O.L.F. Guys and You" golf school held a few weeks ago, I showed—to Ted Fort's amazement—how to hit Trevino-like fades with the so-called over roll.

Ted is an excellent ball-striker as a hitter with angled hinge action, and he formerly was a hooker with a type of full roll that was obviosly missing a KEY piece of the Trevino-Manzella puzzle:

ENOUGH forward lean and ENOUGH Axis-Tilt to have an OPEN ENOUGH clubface...

The REAL TRICK to Lee Buck Trevino's success!

;)

Wicked post Brian. Good to see you back man....it's been dull on the forums without you. This will help me for sure.....

I guess that hip slide/axis tilt of Trevino's allows him to get at the INSIDE of the ball w/ open clubface eh....then you look like the little guy in your logo, who I think would prolly be "hitting it to right field" if you looked at him swinging DTL.

.......I like to feel like I'm trying to hit a bit of a push.

One thing I've worried about when fiddling around with this "Trevino downswing" is that it feels like it could be too much of a shift or something....like I have a "circle delivery path" or w/e. Some kind of other "deviation."

But if it means not hitting it left then I don't really care if it deviates from having a zero shift swing or w/e is geometrically correct.

Thanks for that post Brian.....time to get crackin.
 
So I guess Mr. Trevino was definately a HITTER who smashed the inside-aft quadrant of the ball with a strong pivot right? Not too much SWINGING in his stroke, huh? Is this accurate.

Also, perhaps I was having trouble with the driver since I was using big long tees and teeing the ball way up. Did Trevino tee the ball low?
 

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Lee Trevino was always a good player. In the Marines, he was one of the best players in the service, but he was no match for the best player in the service—the VERY straight-hitting Orville Moody. Lee was always bothered by a hook, and as much as he tried for so-called 'conventional' mechanics, they did nothing to stop his hook. So, he went in search of the game's premier FADER of the ball—as the well as the very best ball-striker, maybe of all-time—Ben Hogan.

Lee snuck into the grounds near the "little 9" at Shady Oaks Country Club in Fort Worth, Texas, where Mr. Hogan practiced. It was there that Trevino became convinced that Hogan controlled shots with his BODY, and he would have to learn to fade the ball with that in mind.

Trevino learned that if he aimed way left, took it back as out and up as possible, and what he called "moved on the ball," he could hit a nice little push-fade.

This 'move on the ball" was nothing more than what The Golfing Machine calls "hip slide" or AXIS TILT. Trevino's key thought in making this move was to get his right watch-pocket—near his right hip bone—PAST THE BALL prior to impact. This big move allowed Trevino to get his hands to the ball and, like I like to say, "HIT THE BOX."

If you have enough forward lean at impact—and this can really only be done with an arched left wrist—you will have enough of an OPEN FACE at impact AND separation to hit the ball left-to-right.

Interestingly, Trevino employed the "Doyle-Manzella Style" full roll with a flat left wrist.

Many in Golfing Machine circles, including Chuck Evans and Ted Fort, think this "over roll" will HAVE TO cause hooks. But, at the "Three G.O.L.F. Guys and You" golf school held a few weeks ago, I showed—to Ted Fort's amazement—how to hit Trevino-like fades with the so-called over roll.

Ted is an excellent ball-striker as a hitter with angled hinge action, and he formerly was a hooker with a type of full roll that was obviosly missing a KEY piece of the Trevino-Manzella puzzle:

ENOUGH forward lean and ENOUGH Axis-Tilt to have an OPEN ENOUGH clubface...

The REAL TRICK to Lee Buck Trevino's success!

;)

Whoomp there it is!!!! Hall of fame post!!!! My vote for Best Brian M post ever.

Can you school us on the Doyle-Manzella Style Full Roll?

Thanks man!
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by rundmc

Can you school us on the Doyle-Manzella Style Full Roll?

Thanks man!

Read the Never Slice Again article in the instruction section. Basically instead of allowing your left wrist to bend after the hinge and then doing your finish swivel, you are keeping a completely flat left wrist through tbe ball and the finish swivel and then letting it bend near around shoulder high at the finish.

When brian taught it to me, i could keep the flat left wrist throughout the entire stroke: setting up with it flat and keeping it flat even into the finish. It was a great learning tool as to how to educate my hands, however it did put a lot of strain on my rotator cuff so i wouldn't do it 100% of the time. But again, it really taught me clubface control
 
Brian,
I assume that Lee Buck aimed the clubface at his intended target at address even though his body alignment was well open. Can you confirm?

Is this your favorite swing pattern for developing a repeatable left-to-right ball flight ? Is this primarily a low-ball flight pattern or was his low ball flight a result of the amount of forward lean Lee needed due to the strong grip?

In other words, if one were to swing like Lee with a more neutral grip, you probably wouldn't need as much forward lean to hold off the clubface, thereby producing a higher trajectory. Or, do you not even attempt a swing pattern like this without the strong grip?
 
quote:Originally posted by vjcapron

Brian,
I assume that Lee Buck aimed the clubface at his intended target at address even though his body alignment was well open. Can you confirm?

Is this your favorite swing pattern for developing a repeatable left-to-right ball flight ? Is this primarily a low-ball flight pattern or was his low ball flight a result of the amount of forward lean Lee needed due to the strong grip?

In other words, if one were to swing like Lee with a more neutral grip, you probably wouldn't need as much forward lean to hold off the clubface, thereby producing a higher trajectory. Or, do you not even attempt a swing pattern like this without the strong grip?

Nono...you can do it with w/e grip you want. And yes a stronger grip will tend to have more forward lean/hit it lower....I think.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Thanks Birdie-- Fantastic-- Anybody have Trevino's book? The bookstores are out. How strong was his grip. V's to right shoulder? Did he use Hogan's grip?

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
I knew where one was, but it's wet now ;)....Orleans Parish Library on Read Blvd....

Trevino's grip was strong, but not SUPER STRONG.
 

rundmc

Banned
quote:Originally posted by Archie Swivel

Thanks Birdie-- Fantastic-- Anybody have Trevino's book? The bookstores are out. How strong was his grip. V's to right shoulder? Did he use Hogan's grip?

Arch

I got it off ebay. I'll post some stuff tonight.
 
It'd be cool if someone could compare and contrast Hogan's grip in his 5 Lessons with that of the Manzella Neutral Grip and that of Trevino's. It seems that the "V's" are not the only factor since I can make the "V" point to my right shoulder with either the grip in the fingers or in the palms of my left hand. Hogan appears to want that grip in the PALM of the left hand but in the FINGERS of the right hand. To me, in the palm would seem to reduce those nasty snappers to a minimum. Any input on this would be appreciated.

Arch
 
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