Ben Hogan and his Three Right Hands
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tourdeep
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Top of backswing.
This static postion I've been working to attain. What I find fun to train is the right elbow to maintain its (near) perpindicluar position. From a front view, I can see my right elbow peeking below my left arm.
left arm and shoulders appear to be in line, club is laid off.
The cupping of his left hand appears to be minimal. For me to get the Hogan lag coming into release, my left wrist has to be cupped slightly more. The fun part is the unwinding action into release from a cupped wrist to the arched wrist at impact, not exactly ez for me. When this position is reached at impact (what I think), the shot produced is low boring, the best ball striking feel, and a thing of beauty. Oh yes, gotta think and do #3 accumulator. If I do not get #3, my shot comes up short, to the right, and with more of a fade tendency.
I believe his knee action would be considered to be right anchor, where both knees are bent until past the "sit down" position, and somehwere just past follow thru, Ben's left side is straight. Brian has debated the straightening action of Ben's knee, and in certain clips/pictures it does appear to straighten more than this particular image. I think there's a bit of straightening here, although slight.
tourdeep said:
Top of backswing.
This static postion I've been working to attain. What I find fun to train is the right elbow to maintain its (near) perpindicluar position. From a front view, I can see my right elbow peeking below my left arm.
left arm and shoulders appear to be in line, club is laid off.
The cupping of his left hand appears to be minimal. For me to get the Hogan lag coming into release, my left wrist has to be cupped slightly more. The fun part is the unwinding action into release from a cupped wrist to the arched wrist at impact, not exactly ez for me. When this position is reached at impact (what I think), the shot produced is low boring, the best ball striking feel, and a thing of beauty. Oh yes, gotta think and do #3 accumulator. If I do not get #3, my shot comes up short, to the right, and with more of a fade tendency.
I believe his knee action would be considered to be right anchor, where both knees are bent until past the "sit down" position, and somehwere just past follow thru, Ben's left side is straight. Brian has debated the straightening action of Ben's knee, and in certain clips/pictures it does appear to straighten more than this particular image. I think there's a bit of straightening here, although slight.
Tourdeep,
Isn't this a picture of Hogan in the start down?
spike
p.s. thanks for the pics! Can never get tired of looking at this guy no matter what position!
birdie_man said:
It looks like the picture on the cover of Life magazine is a painting. Regardless of that it doesn't look to me that his wrist is "cupped". When I hold my left hand extended, w/o a club, fingers extended straight with a flat left wrist, the wrist looks flat in relation with my knuckles and fingers.
If I then make a fist the wrist has the look of being bent in relationship to my knuckles. If I then flatten the wrist and open my fingers I have an arched wrist.
I know my TGM terminology is very limited but it seems to me that Ben is in a very acceptable flat left wrist position at the top. Am I way out of line? 'Cause I'm willing to learn.
spike
birdie_man
New
I just figured that with his grip and how open the clubface is that that was kinda wild.....
Ya it could be the camera angle tho eh.....(at least partly).....cause his club looks across the line (which almost definitely isn't right)....
If it's a painting tho all this is irrelevant.....cause it's not actually Hogan.
Ya it could be the camera angle tho eh.....(at least partly).....cause his club looks across the line (which almost definitely isn't right)....
If it's a painting tho all this is irrelevant.....cause it's not actually Hogan.
tourdeep
New
Spike said:
Hogan's downswing is a tough one to pinpoint since it often has been said that he begins his lateral shift, the bump, the slide, the prolonded hip turn, prior to the completion of the backswing. The dude moves his weight from the trail to lead side fairly fast due to his fast swing tempo and a more compact swing (for Ben Hogan).
Because he works from the ground up, I focus on is his feet and knees. His left knee appears to have yet to start moving forward. The right knee looks like it has yet to initiate that Hogan lean, where the right knee moves inward, toward the target line.
His trail foot appers to be firmly planted without any evidence of a inward roll, or push. Regarding his left foot, hard to tell. I do not see the inward roll. Rather, it looks flat. If so, he has begun the start down. Again, hard to tell from this angle. Most of the front view images I see of Hogan has the left foot rolling inward, whether it appears the shoe itself makes the move or the action of the knee makes the move more apparent, to an outwrd roll on the downswing.
anyway, glad you enjoy the pictures and really enjoy talking about the dynamics of his swing and throwing in my .02 along the way for debate.
birdie_man
New
I think he keeps more weight on the left side sometimes....can't figure out how else he'd do that w/o a steeper shoulder turn or something...
tourdeep said:
Hey Tourdeep,
Your 0.02 should probably be the 4th thing Snead should fear! I like the way you see things. I know the angle is tough to review. He just seems to be in the "sit down" position with his hips rather square to the balls target line. After seeing how much hip turn he has in the back swing, it just kinda looks like he's on his way.
Yup and for sure, lovin' every moment and thank you!!
spike
tourdeep
New
birdie_man said:
We've touched on this a little b4. I tried shifting a little more weight to the front to get the feel. Great for better balance, but not sure if this would be appropriate to max the umph.
Hogan's got a pretty fast tempo, and I do think he moves the weight, the rolling effect, the in between the feet movement. I just see too much roll on the lead foot to think he's leaving a bunch on the front.
You know the gif that's on the net, where he's wearing the baby blue outfit? Take it slo motion, and you will see what I would term a float load lower side, the x factor thingy going on.
Without a doubt, he's moving to the left with a slide, tilt, bump,,,prior to the completion of his backswing. See his lead side butt cheek peeking? In fast motion, sure looks like a bunch is left on the lead side. It almost appears to be a reverse pivot, or at the point where Brian talks about the left side sag. His trail left leg is getting the "lean" prior to the top position as well...
Regarding his knee movement, dunno if he's pressing off the inside trail foot, responding to the lead knee thrust, and/or the result of responding to the slide, tilt, bump move,,,perhaps it's the combo platter, huh?...so many variations I've heard that I remain slightly in the dark. I'll stick with ground up for now...
birdie_man
New
Ya man he does somthing different with that, that's for sure...can't quite put my finger on what exactly causes it....dunno if it's an adjustment before the swing (knee? weight distribution?...only sometimes tho).....or does he just DO it?...
i.e. if he does it with his pivot in the backswing somehow (but his shoulders do turn fairly flat....well- not steep anyway...i.e. causes l. side sag/those lower body pivot alignments).....or in the downswing....dunno.....
i.e. if he does it with his pivot in the backswing somehow (but his shoulders do turn fairly flat....well- not steep anyway...i.e. causes l. side sag/those lower body pivot alignments).....or in the downswing....dunno.....
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I absolutely concur with the observation that he keeps his weight on the lead side. It appears he uses his right leg as a brace and doesn't really ever shift his weight to the right leg. If you hit balls in this manner, in trying to imitate his swing, a few things I have noticed. You can't really overswing, it's definitely more suitable to accuracy than power. Keeping your weight on the lead side it's very easy to keep your hands in front of the ball and compress, much like chipping, lastly, leads to a lower ball flight. I'm not sure what Hogan's ball flight was, but when I keep the weight on the lead foot, I hit low accurate lasers.
Hogan's Left Side
I believe that due to the address position of spine angle/tilt, Hogan figured out how to "counter balance" the dynamic weight shift (while turning) of the club weight, hands/arms weight, torso/shoulder weight.
I think he well and truly "swung" the club backward. The effect of up and behind are due to the momentum of the swinging clubhead "against" the natural pressure points of his grip, creating his power package.
Because of this "upper body/club dynamic" is taking place (especially at the speed Hogan used) his lower body had no choice but to counter balance this force to maintain his center balance.
This effectively has the "upper body parts/weight" behind the ball and coiled against the feet, knees and hips. ......he felt like his feet were in cement.
The speed of this move, of course, could cause the left heel to rise to accept the greater force and coil in the upper body.
The other thing, that I think, was that when Hogan described his swing he was describing the effects and not his "real secret". Which, to me, was simply "educated hands" in relation to the 3 imperitives and the 3 essentials. Although, to be fair, he may not have known this at the time.
I am quite new to TGM terminology but this is the best way I could explain my ideas. I'm still learning and won't stop. I really appreciate what I've learned from you guys. Thank you to Burner, Tourdeep, Tongzilla...... just to name a few.
And, I thank you Brian,
spike
I believe that due to the address position of spine angle/tilt, Hogan figured out how to "counter balance" the dynamic weight shift (while turning) of the club weight, hands/arms weight, torso/shoulder weight.
I think he well and truly "swung" the club backward. The effect of up and behind are due to the momentum of the swinging clubhead "against" the natural pressure points of his grip, creating his power package.
Because of this "upper body/club dynamic" is taking place (especially at the speed Hogan used) his lower body had no choice but to counter balance this force to maintain his center balance.
This effectively has the "upper body parts/weight" behind the ball and coiled against the feet, knees and hips. ......he felt like his feet were in cement.
The speed of this move, of course, could cause the left heel to rise to accept the greater force and coil in the upper body.
The other thing, that I think, was that when Hogan described his swing he was describing the effects and not his "real secret". Which, to me, was simply "educated hands" in relation to the 3 imperitives and the 3 essentials. Although, to be fair, he may not have known this at the time.
I am quite new to TGM terminology but this is the best way I could explain my ideas. I'm still learning and won't stop. I really appreciate what I've learned from you guys. Thank you to Burner, Tourdeep, Tongzilla...... just to name a few.
And, I thank you Brian,
spike
David Alford
New
The master keys will be revealed next year...and all the b.s. about Hogan's swing will be OVER, once and for all. Virtually everything I read about Hogan's swing is either wrong or simply position analysis. Hey, I had a tough time with it, too. Most of my "assumptions" were also incorrect...for many years.
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