A New Take on Mac O'Grady
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Dana Dahlquist
New
LOL
birdie_man
New
Hehehe....
...
Anyhoo...
K I can see that part of it.
What about execution tho? (of the shot at hand)
U just gotta commit?
...
Anyhoo...
K I can see that part of it.
What about execution tho? (of the shot at hand)
U just gotta commit?
birdie_man
New
Dana Dahlquist
New
cool site
David Alford
New
You know what guys? Just do A, B, C, D, and E (for example), and you'll hit the ball as pure as humanly possible.
Of course, this begs the question, what is A, B, C, D, and E? and how does one excute each?
But the golf ball doesn't react to philosophy, the zone, or anything else other than a very small set of parameters (a codon if you will).
What was Moe Norman thinking about when he hit drive after drive right down the middle? Probably nuthin'. Maybe he was a genius savant, but he was just doing stuff. The right stuff.
Same for Hogan, despite his purported genius, etc. Golf ball doesn't care about any of that, and if you fall away from your little workable codon it will show you how little it cares for who you are, how smart you are, or how important it all is for you...
Figure out the codon and execute.
Of course, this begs the question, what is A, B, C, D, and E? and how does one excute each?
But the golf ball doesn't react to philosophy, the zone, or anything else other than a very small set of parameters (a codon if you will).
What was Moe Norman thinking about when he hit drive after drive right down the middle? Probably nuthin'. Maybe he was a genius savant, but he was just doing stuff. The right stuff.
Same for Hogan, despite his purported genius, etc. Golf ball doesn't care about any of that, and if you fall away from your little workable codon it will show you how little it cares for who you are, how smart you are, or how important it all is for you...
Figure out the codon and execute.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
David,
Do you have any theories or positions on the golf swing that we could all discuss and dismantle if we disagree?
I certainly don't have the knowledge to discredit someone who has put his stuff 'out there', albeit so far only in terms of his students and the teachers who have been influenced by him.
From what I can gather, the people who have actually studied with him(NAT, Dana, Bantamben to name a few), are pretty complimentary about his knowledge and ideas. Not too many people 'diss' him.
Perhaps you've studied with him, and have tested all his ideas, and can prove through the written word and/or otherwise what is wrong and so bad?
Interested to hear 'em....
Do you have any theories or positions on the golf swing that we could all discuss and dismantle if we disagree?
I certainly don't have the knowledge to discredit someone who has put his stuff 'out there', albeit so far only in terms of his students and the teachers who have been influenced by him.
From what I can gather, the people who have actually studied with him(NAT, Dana, Bantamben to name a few), are pretty complimentary about his knowledge and ideas. Not too many people 'diss' him.
Perhaps you've studied with him, and have tested all his ideas, and can prove through the written word and/or otherwise what is wrong and so bad?
Interested to hear 'em....
David Alford
New
Biffer, thanks for the link.
This is pretty much the same swing as in the 80's, subtracting a bit for age. I don't see the club butt pointing toward his belly at address, as some claim. For driver, his hands are (still) fairly low & would be even lower for irons, no doubt.
It's also clear, as I claimed when I posted my version of this model, that a key feature of this swing is the straightened left leg by impact or just after.
Nice controlled finish although he doesn't look super strong immediately post impact - perhaps due to his arm injury.
Overall, a very good swing.
This is pretty much the same swing as in the 80's, subtracting a bit for age. I don't see the club butt pointing toward his belly at address, as some claim. For driver, his hands are (still) fairly low & would be even lower for irons, no doubt.
It's also clear, as I claimed when I posted my version of this model, that a key feature of this swing is the straightened left leg by impact or just after.
Nice controlled finish although he doesn't look super strong immediately post impact - perhaps due to his arm injury.
Overall, a very good swing.
David Alford
New
Damon, his positions are all very good to excellent.
I posted my version of this model. Compare 'em side by side. I no longer have the link, but maybe it's still around. I wasn't trying to emulate Mac exactly, as I have my own thoughts & was trying to generate more impressive angles.
Therefore, it's very likely, Mac and I are doing things a little different.
I posted my version of this model. Compare 'em side by side. I no longer have the link, but maybe it's still around. I wasn't trying to emulate Mac exactly, as I have my own thoughts & was trying to generate more impressive angles.
Therefore, it's very likely, Mac and I are doing things a little different.
tongzilla
New
I like your swing David...
But to suggest that you could swing just like Mac if you really wanted to, but you didn't simply because there were things you thought you could've done better...
And can you please elaborate on what you mean by "more impressive" angles? On a seperate note, I think there's a general misconception that the greater the "lag" (angle between the left arm and clubshaft on the downswing) in a swing, the better it is.
David I think your swing looks good on video. I think your Hogan model looks a bit like Hogan, and your Mac model looks a bit like Mac. Commendable effort.
But to suggest that you could swing just like Mac if you really wanted to, but you didn't simply because there were things you thought you could've done better...
And can you please elaborate on what you mean by "more impressive" angles? On a seperate note, I think there's a general misconception that the greater the "lag" (angle between the left arm and clubshaft on the downswing) in a swing, the better it is.
I agree with you Tongzilla, regarding the lag issue.
I recall reading a quote from Ben Doyle in a Golfweek article last year about TGM in which he responded to the question of whether or not you could have too much lag by asking "can you have too much love?". I thought that was an interesting response. I thought Sergio Garcia's swing generated a bit too much lag and forced compensations coming into impact that made him erratic at inopportune times....just my observation.
I believe he set out to lessen this condition over the last year and perhaps has become a more consistent ball-striker in kind. Again, this is merely a personal observation and in no way a criticism of Mr. Doyle.
Regarding Mac O'Grady, I had the good fortune of being an associate of his from 2000 until about 8 months ago when I inevitably fell on my own sword and became "banished from the inner circle".
Over the course of those 5 years, I attended and assisted Mac in at 40 seminars conducted by him at various locales. He is everything people say he is and often opens his seminars by saying to his audience with a twinkle in his eye and a wry smile that "everything you have heard about me is true". I have quietly sat back and read many posts questioning his theories and bad-mouthing his expertise. It is true that he has enjoyed the luxury of selectively "picking his spots" by conducting seminars that have essentially been set up for him prior to his arrival...a very difficult process for those putting them together. We who rely on return visits from less skilled and often close-minded students operated under a different set of circumstances in order to feed ourselves and our families.
However, all that aside, there is no questioning the fact that Mac has poured his entire being into learning, studying, and classifying the multitude of nuances and variables involved in hitting a golf ball with absolute precision.
The MORAD Investigation is a body of research that began in the early 80's and has Homer Kelley and TGM to thank as the foundation of its query. I remember being moved to tears as Mac relayed the story of showing up at Mr. Kelley's doorstep with his game in pieces after his sponsors forced him to take lessons from a local teacher who was in the habit of making changes without a complete understanding of the golf swing and its variations. He had gone from a wonderkind who routinely shot in the 60's and bombed the ball past everyone, to a short-hitting, confused, hack who had trouble breaking 90. Mr. Kelley welcomed him inside and, after hearing his story, told him that he did not have to play golf with a weak grip, as he had been told by the teacher....it was okay to play with a strong grip.
Moreover, he did not have to swing the club straight back down-the-line and vertically to the top...the Nicklaus "high-hands" position advocated by so many at that time. He then proceeded to pull down his plastic sheet to illustrate plane variations and suddenly the light went off. Within 15 minutes, Mr. Kelley had taught Mac something that would last a lifetime. Together they went to the driving range and Mac immediately regained his compression and control...the confusion was gone and he began shooting in the 60's shortly thereafter. What followed was a special relationship between Mac and Mr. Kelley that lasted until his untimely death just 3 years later.
There is so much more I could write, but it is Thanksgiving Day and that darn bird takes forever to cook. I will wrap it up by saying that you can say what you want about Mac, but he is one who has walked into the arena and put it to the test. He won on the PGA Tour and there are not many who can say that....how many of Golf Magazine's Top 100 even played an event out there. Granted, that is not the measure of great teacher. But putting your swing next to his and comparing angles only scratches the surface of what it means to be a great player. We could debate various features of the golf swing and try to poke holes in his or anyone else's theories. But I believe that, to this point, Mac has done all within his power to use scientific principles and various other sources to try and solve the dilemma of how to control as many variables as humanly possible on the way to getting the ball in the hole as quickly as possible.
I recall reading a quote from Ben Doyle in a Golfweek article last year about TGM in which he responded to the question of whether or not you could have too much lag by asking "can you have too much love?". I thought that was an interesting response. I thought Sergio Garcia's swing generated a bit too much lag and forced compensations coming into impact that made him erratic at inopportune times....just my observation.
I believe he set out to lessen this condition over the last year and perhaps has become a more consistent ball-striker in kind. Again, this is merely a personal observation and in no way a criticism of Mr. Doyle.
Regarding Mac O'Grady, I had the good fortune of being an associate of his from 2000 until about 8 months ago when I inevitably fell on my own sword and became "banished from the inner circle".
Over the course of those 5 years, I attended and assisted Mac in at 40 seminars conducted by him at various locales. He is everything people say he is and often opens his seminars by saying to his audience with a twinkle in his eye and a wry smile that "everything you have heard about me is true". I have quietly sat back and read many posts questioning his theories and bad-mouthing his expertise. It is true that he has enjoyed the luxury of selectively "picking his spots" by conducting seminars that have essentially been set up for him prior to his arrival...a very difficult process for those putting them together. We who rely on return visits from less skilled and often close-minded students operated under a different set of circumstances in order to feed ourselves and our families.
However, all that aside, there is no questioning the fact that Mac has poured his entire being into learning, studying, and classifying the multitude of nuances and variables involved in hitting a golf ball with absolute precision.
The MORAD Investigation is a body of research that began in the early 80's and has Homer Kelley and TGM to thank as the foundation of its query. I remember being moved to tears as Mac relayed the story of showing up at Mr. Kelley's doorstep with his game in pieces after his sponsors forced him to take lessons from a local teacher who was in the habit of making changes without a complete understanding of the golf swing and its variations. He had gone from a wonderkind who routinely shot in the 60's and bombed the ball past everyone, to a short-hitting, confused, hack who had trouble breaking 90. Mr. Kelley welcomed him inside and, after hearing his story, told him that he did not have to play golf with a weak grip, as he had been told by the teacher....it was okay to play with a strong grip.
Moreover, he did not have to swing the club straight back down-the-line and vertically to the top...the Nicklaus "high-hands" position advocated by so many at that time. He then proceeded to pull down his plastic sheet to illustrate plane variations and suddenly the light went off. Within 15 minutes, Mr. Kelley had taught Mac something that would last a lifetime. Together they went to the driving range and Mac immediately regained his compression and control...the confusion was gone and he began shooting in the 60's shortly thereafter. What followed was a special relationship between Mac and Mr. Kelley that lasted until his untimely death just 3 years later.
There is so much more I could write, but it is Thanksgiving Day and that darn bird takes forever to cook. I will wrap it up by saying that you can say what you want about Mac, but he is one who has walked into the arena and put it to the test. He won on the PGA Tour and there are not many who can say that....how many of Golf Magazine's Top 100 even played an event out there. Granted, that is not the measure of great teacher. But putting your swing next to his and comparing angles only scratches the surface of what it means to be a great player. We could debate various features of the golf swing and try to poke holes in his or anyone else's theories. But I believe that, to this point, Mac has done all within his power to use scientific principles and various other sources to try and solve the dilemma of how to control as many variables as humanly possible on the way to getting the ball in the hole as quickly as possible.
Last edited by a moderator:
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Thank you for your insight Tarheel, I enjoyed reading it. The enigma of Mac O'Grady is very intriguing.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Happy Thanksgiving.
David Alford
New
To produce the same model with less lag, would be easy. I mean it's harder to get serious lag than not to.
In general, I agree with Ben Doyle, the more lag the better especially with swing models.
However, if you are monitoring & purposely keeping the right wrist angle, as some do in swing models and as you should in hit models, it is less critical.
Further, although less initial lag angle is usually produced by hit models, just prior to impact the angles can be the same as what Hogan or Sergio had retained at this point.
In general, I agree with Ben Doyle, the more lag the better especially with swing models.
However, if you are monitoring & purposely keeping the right wrist angle, as some do in swing models and as you should in hit models, it is less critical.
Further, although less initial lag angle is usually produced by hit models, just prior to impact the angles can be the same as what Hogan or Sergio had retained at this point.
David Alford
New
Tarheel, with all due respect to you, Mac was not a great player, as Jack Nicklaus pointed out. That said, I'll give anyone some respect who can hit the ball really well.
Yep, it is true he won a couple of times on tour. He was a professional golfer, and almost everyone here is not.
That said, I probably would lose a little respect for a teacher who starts a seminar off with the comment quoted above. Just my .02.
Just out of curiousity, in all of the seminars, did you ever witness another well versed student or teacher contradicting Mac? He's been known to swing a driver around...
Yep, it is true he won a couple of times on tour. He was a professional golfer, and almost everyone here is not.
That said, I probably would lose a little respect for a teacher who starts a seminar off with the comment quoted above. Just my .02.
Just out of curiousity, in all of the seminars, did you ever witness another well versed student or teacher contradicting Mac? He's been known to swing a driver around...
Dana Dahlquist
New
So what does two wins on tour mean then?
David Alford
New
I'll let others comment on that, other than to say I give him credit for those.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Too much lag?
You mean too much TRIGGER DELAY?
Or too much SNAP in the RELEASE?
Or too much Accumulator Lag?
Or too much #2 Accumulator angle too deep in the downswing?
??
?
You mean too much TRIGGER DELAY?
Or too much SNAP in the RELEASE?
Or too much Accumulator Lag?
Or too much #2 Accumulator angle too deep in the downswing?
??
?
Tarheel...If you were an associate from 2000 to just recently...then we must know each other ....anyways great post....Mac is the greatest "underachiever" in the history of the game...When I was working with Keith Clearwater in 1999...I had the opportunity to watch Mac first hand on the PGA Tour in "The Competiton"...He played on another level...unfortunatley his scorecard had style points ....
How many people here have won, played, taught, on the PGA Tour?...
How many people here have won, played, taught, on the PGA Tour?...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
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