Pitch or Punch elbow?
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
Tomato, ToMAtoe, Potato, PoTOTa—LET's call the whole thing off!
Here again (please don't try to get too exact about this, detractors)....is the PLAIN ENGLISH VERSION:
Pitch Elbow: ELBOW leads HANDS & HANDS lead CLUBHEAD.
Punch Elbow: HANDS lead ELBOW & ELBOW leads CLUBHEAD.
Push Elbow: HANDS lead CLUBHEAD & CLUBHEAD lead ELBOW.
Pitch and Punch can be used for swinging and Hitting.
Don't worry about it, unless CHANGING IT will make you do the MANZELLA IMPERATIVES better.
Here again (please don't try to get too exact about this, detractors)....is the PLAIN ENGLISH VERSION:
Pitch Elbow: ELBOW leads HANDS & HANDS lead CLUBHEAD.
Punch Elbow: HANDS lead ELBOW & ELBOW leads CLUBHEAD.
Push Elbow: HANDS lead CLUBHEAD & CLUBHEAD lead ELBOW.
Pitch and Punch can be used for swinging and Hitting.
Don't worry about it, unless CHANGING IT will make you do the MANZELLA IMPERATIVES better.
Brian Manzella said:Here again (please don't try to get too exact about this, detractors)....is the PLAIN ENGLISH VERSION:
Pitch Elbow: ELBOW leads HANDS & HANDS lead CLUBHEAD.
Punch Elbow: HANDS lead ELBOW & ELBOW leads CLUBHEAD.
Push Elbow: HANDS lead CLUBHEAD & CLUBHEAD lead ELBOW.
Pitch and Punch can be used for swinging and Hitting.
Don't worry about it, unless CHANGING IT will make you do the MANZELLA IMPERATIVES better.
OK Brain I’ll take your advice you now more about the swing then I every will know in a life time. So MANZELLA IMPERATIVES are Flat left wrist/bent right and what was the other one.
Timm
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The Manzella Imperatives
1. Straight Plane Line (no cross line cra..)
2. Lag Pressure
3. Hinge-like action Clubface Control
4. Axis Tilt
1. Straight Plane Line (no cross line cra..)
2. Lag Pressure
3. Hinge-like action Clubface Control
4. Axis Tilt
birdie_man
New
Hinge-like action?
lol
(Tilt is pretty well deserved BTW)
lol
(Tilt is pretty well deserved BTW)
Brian Manzella said:Here again (please don't try to get too exact about this, detractors)....is the PLAIN ENGLISH VERSION:
Pitch Elbow: ELBOW leads HANDS & HANDS lead CLUBHEAD.
Punch Elbow: HANDS lead ELBOW & ELBOW leads CLUBHEAD.
Push Elbow: HANDS lead CLUBHEAD & CLUBHEAD lead ELBOW.
Pitch and Punch can be used for swinging and Hitting.
Don't worry about it, unless CHANGING IT will make you do the MANZELLA IMPERATIVES better.
Brian wouldn't the pitch position in a swinging procedure generally lead to better lag?? Thus being a better procedure for longer distance.
Dave
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
It leads to more TRIGGER DELAY not necessarily more lag.
The more delay the slower the hand speed needs to be to create the same amount of speed. Thus, more delay = less hand speed to create the same speed. This is why people who have a lot of delay seem to "look" like they don't have very active pivots.
The less delay you have is pretty much the opposite. You'll need to increase your hand speed to make up for the lack of delay.
Think Sergio vs Tiger. This is also all covered in the endless belt section in the book i believe.
The more delay the slower the hand speed needs to be to create the same amount of speed. Thus, more delay = less hand speed to create the same speed. This is why people who have a lot of delay seem to "look" like they don't have very active pivots.
The less delay you have is pretty much the opposite. You'll need to increase your hand speed to make up for the lack of delay.
Think Sergio vs Tiger. This is also all covered in the endless belt section in the book i believe.
Cross-Line Thrust Through Billions of Parallel Plane Lines
First of all, the quote above -- "cross line cra..."-- is not my error. Unfortunately, it is directly from our host, Brian Manzella.
In one dismissive and mean-spirited 'three-letter' word-- "cra"p -- he dispenses with the Outward Dimension of the Three-Dimensional Downstroke (Downward, Outward and Forward). Indeed, in one deriding 'three-letter' word, he labels "Wrong!" the essential Geometry of The Golfing Machine, its Inclined Plane of Motion and the wisdom of its author, Homer Kelley, who refers many times in his work to "Cross Line." All this despite Brian's post signature, "The IMPERATIVES should dictate the components -- not the other way around."
Fine.
It is his site.
For the rest of us...
From the Top, the player directs Clubhead Lag Pressure Down Plane (via its Down-and-Out Delivery Path) toward the Straight Plane Line (usually the Target Line).
Then, through Impact, he continues to direct Clubhead Lag Pressure Down Plane -- Down-and-Out -- via its Straight Line path through the Impact Point to the Low Point (of the Clubhead Arc). Given the In-Line condition of the Left Arm and Clubshaft -- via the Flat Left Wrist or its Geometric Equivalent -- this lowest point of the Down Plane Clubhead Arc is located opposite the Left Shoulder and on a Low Point Plane Line parallel to the Impact Plane Line.
Thus, the Lag Pressure (and the Clubhead) Cross the Straight Plane Line, i.e., that Line passing through the Impact Point and directly toward the Target. They do, in fact, Cross through the Impact Plane Line on their way toward the parallel Low Point Plane Line.
In other words, from the Top, both the Thrust of the Stroke and the Clubhead Cross BILLIONS (actually, an infinite number) of parallel Straight Plane Lines on their way through Impact Point to Low Point.
And so it is with Cross-Line Thrust...and the resultant Clubhead Orbit.
It is not the way some people think it to be.
Or even the way they wish it to be.
It is the way it actually is.
And so it will remain for all time.
Brian Manzella said:
First of all, the quote above -- "cross line cra..."-- is not my error. Unfortunately, it is directly from our host, Brian Manzella.
In one dismissive and mean-spirited 'three-letter' word-- "cra"p -- he dispenses with the Outward Dimension of the Three-Dimensional Downstroke (Downward, Outward and Forward). Indeed, in one deriding 'three-letter' word, he labels "Wrong!" the essential Geometry of The Golfing Machine, its Inclined Plane of Motion and the wisdom of its author, Homer Kelley, who refers many times in his work to "Cross Line." All this despite Brian's post signature, "The IMPERATIVES should dictate the components -- not the other way around."
Fine.
It is his site.
For the rest of us...
From the Top, the player directs Clubhead Lag Pressure Down Plane (via its Down-and-Out Delivery Path) toward the Straight Plane Line (usually the Target Line).
Then, through Impact, he continues to direct Clubhead Lag Pressure Down Plane -- Down-and-Out -- via its Straight Line path through the Impact Point to the Low Point (of the Clubhead Arc). Given the In-Line condition of the Left Arm and Clubshaft -- via the Flat Left Wrist or its Geometric Equivalent -- this lowest point of the Down Plane Clubhead Arc is located opposite the Left Shoulder and on a Low Point Plane Line parallel to the Impact Plane Line.
Thus, the Lag Pressure (and the Clubhead) Cross the Straight Plane Line, i.e., that Line passing through the Impact Point and directly toward the Target. They do, in fact, Cross through the Impact Plane Line on their way toward the parallel Low Point Plane Line.
In other words, from the Top, both the Thrust of the Stroke and the Clubhead Cross BILLIONS (actually, an infinite number) of parallel Straight Plane Lines on their way through Impact Point to Low Point.
And so it is with Cross-Line Thrust...and the resultant Clubhead Orbit.
It is not the way some people think it to be.
Or even the way they wish it to be.
It is the way it actually is.
And so it will remain for all time.
Last edited by a moderator:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hey, it looks like you've read the book. Good for you.
This is what I am saying:
I don't like SWINGS (Stroke Patterns) that have a clubhead that DOES NOT DRAW A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE.
Period.
Force goes down and out even after low point.
But that is NOT what I am talking about—so...for those who need clarification:
I don't like SWINGS (Stroke Patterns) that have a clubhead that DOES NOT DRAW A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE.
I like swings that produce a CLUBHEAD PATH that IMMEDIATELY after low point, goes UP AND IN.
And that is the way it will be for BILLIONS of years.
I will always prefer swings that produce a CLUBHEAD PATH that go UP AND IN IMMEDIATELY after low point.
Because, they work better (ie HIT IT STRAIGHTER)
And they will for billions and billions of years......
This is what I am saying:
I don't like SWINGS (Stroke Patterns) that have a clubhead that DOES NOT DRAW A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE.
Period.
Force goes down and out even after low point.
But that is NOT what I am talking about—so...for those who need clarification:
I don't like SWINGS (Stroke Patterns) that have a clubhead that DOES NOT DRAW A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE.
I like swings that produce a CLUBHEAD PATH that IMMEDIATELY after low point, goes UP AND IN.
And that is the way it will be for BILLIONS of years.
I will always prefer swings that produce a CLUBHEAD PATH that go UP AND IN IMMEDIATELY after low point.
Because, they work better (ie HIT IT STRAIGHTER)
And they will for billions and billions of years......
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self-mastery
New
Play nice.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Thanks!
Thank you Brian .... and Lynn for the clarifications!
I've got to say this is an issue that I've struggled with. The term 'cross line' ,improperly perceived is a very dangerous phrase. As a result of trying to move my hips cross line and my clubhead cross line, I developed an overly inside out path and its ramifications, and a hip 'action' whereby I stood up out of shots.
So maybe, just maybe, the supposedly precise terminology of TGM lets us(or at least me) down in this instance, and I am very grateful for Brian's real world explanation(as I am for your super - ant explanation in another post). And I am grateful to Lynn for his very precise TGM explanation of the concept. I didn't think there was conflict in either gentleman's intent....just misinterpreted verbiage.
Cheers,
Thank you Brian .... and Lynn for the clarifications!
I've got to say this is an issue that I've struggled with. The term 'cross line' ,improperly perceived is a very dangerous phrase. As a result of trying to move my hips cross line and my clubhead cross line, I developed an overly inside out path and its ramifications, and a hip 'action' whereby I stood up out of shots.
So maybe, just maybe, the supposedly precise terminology of TGM lets us(or at least me) down in this instance, and I am very grateful for Brian's real world explanation(as I am for your super - ant explanation in another post). And I am grateful to Lynn for his very precise TGM explanation of the concept. I didn't think there was conflict in either gentleman's intent....just misinterpreted verbiage.
Cheers,
Millrat
New
homersson said:
You raise an excellent point. I've also struggled with the terms and the mental picture they produce i.e. inside aft of the ball, cross-line thrust. I feel its worth quantifying these terms in real measures like "one dimple inside" or "1/2" cross line". Just my opinion, the one dimple idea really fits well in my warped coconut.
CW
tongzilla
New
What are your thoughts on the Angle of Approach procedure described in 2-J-3-B?Brian Manzella said:
I will probably be seen as being unecessarily pedantic here, but the it's the Clubshaft not Clubhead that draws the Straight Plane Line. However, the Clubhead can be guided by the use of Visual Equilants via Delivery Lines.
tongzilla
New
Mathew said:
Yes.
I haven't got the book with me, but I remember Homer clearly states that unless otherwise noted, the Clubshaft and Center of Gravity of application can be treated the same, and it is an acceptable Visual Equivalent especially when the Clubface is Turned toward the Plane. There are many examples where Homer used the term Clubshaft when he really meant the Longitudinal Center of Gravity.
As far as the golfer is concerned, you either feel Sweetspot or you don't!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
That's why I can teach as well as I do.
You are right guys,
but,
really,
does Mrs. Fabersham need to know this?
You are right guys,
but,
really,
does Mrs. Fabersham need to know this?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
You guys KILL me....
WTFDDIRM????
The clubhead will make a curve---a certain curve----on the ground VISUALLY to the golfer. It is determain by the methods you all point out.
But, really guys, no one is as good as you think they are, and close will do 99.999% of the time.
WTFDDIRM????
The clubhead will make a curve---a certain curve----on the ground VISUALLY to the golfer. It is determain by the methods you all point out.
But, really guys, no one is as good as you think they are, and close will do 99.999% of the time.
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