Question for Kevin or Brian, or anybody else that knows Trackman well. I was at a seminar put on by Matt Frelich of Trackman and asked a question that I did not get answered. I understand that all drivers have bulge and roll to the face to some degree. One, is there an industry standard, in other words if a student hits the ball an inch toward the toe from center, what is the face angle? And also, when they give examples on how many yards of hook spin that would create (based on speed and zeroes) does that take into account the bulge of the face. I understand that the machine simply spits out a spin axis degree as well as smash factor. But without puting something on the face is there any way of monitoring gear effect/centeredness of contact. Finally, I assume gear effect is greater with a CG back (Driver) than a forward CG (iron), because I dont believe there is bulge or roll to an iron face. Any help? Thanks.
Centeredness of Contact question (Trackman)
- Thread starter Dan44GT
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We'll have to get back to you on that one.....next?
Did you get that "Oh s....." we didn't think of that look? That is an outstanding question that I would have to think they have took into consideration......if not maybe the price may suddenly drop. I would have to believe that with the types of companies, in particular, PING that they have taken that into consideration for testing.
Did you get that "Oh s....." we didn't think of that look? That is an outstanding question that I would have to think they have took into consideration......if not maybe the price may suddenly drop. I would have to believe that with the types of companies, in particular, PING that they have taken that into consideration for testing.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
If you have a fade(positive) spin axis and a closed(negative) face, its been 100% accurate in my experience that the person hit it on the heel, and vice versa. They have something coming out that will do the math to determine how much, by dimples, the center was missed. I dont know why Matt didnt answer that but they already can figure it out. Jaridyard posted a chart of off center contact from certain PGA Tour players.
Yes, gear effect is substantially higher with a driver but still very present with an iron for the reasons you stated.
Yes, gear effect is substantially higher with a driver but still very present with an iron for the reasons you stated.
Thanks Kevin. I understand that Trackman is all that it says it is, and maybe more and Matt has done a great job on multiple occasions in presenting their information to non-owners. I am just curious why they haven't displayed face contact on thier program as it is such an important factor. Also, looks more professional than face tape or spray. One last thing that I'm not sure of, is bulge of a driver consistent across the board of makes and models? How much does the face open on average an inch from center (toe grooves)?
I will look for Jaridyard's post.
Thanks again.
I will look for Jaridyard's post.
Thanks again.
softconsult
New
One last thing that I'm not sure of, is bulge of a driver consistent across the board of makes and models?
Of course not, a minimal amount of research will answer your question.
Of course not, a minimal amount of research will answer your question.
softconsult
New
It's just that you have that PGA/AMF membership thing in your signature. It strikes me that you should know something as basic as Bulge and Roll and that there are really no industry wide standards other than those imposed by the ruling bodies.
It's my observation, certainly not just this forum, that participants sometimes ask questions that are easy to answer with a tad bit of work on their part. A couple of Google search words, i.e. "Golf Bulge and Roll" pops up all kinds of results.
I spent years and years dealing with people, who reported to me, asking me questions. When I was a young manager I would answer them. Then I realized what was going on. It's called upward delegation. I decided that, depending on the question, to challenge them relative to whether they had actually done any work on the problem. They would go away with their tail between their legs. When they came back, and they often didn't need to, they had the answer.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but that's what I think.
It's my observation, certainly not just this forum, that participants sometimes ask questions that are easy to answer with a tad bit of work on their part. A couple of Google search words, i.e. "Golf Bulge and Roll" pops up all kinds of results.
I spent years and years dealing with people, who reported to me, asking me questions. When I was a young manager I would answer them. Then I realized what was going on. It's called upward delegation. I decided that, depending on the question, to challenge them relative to whether they had actually done any work on the problem. They would go away with their tail between their legs. When they came back, and they often didn't need to, they had the answer.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but that's what I think.
starretj
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I have been waiting all afternoon to get home and post a question about this topic and then I see that someone else is already asking. My question to Brian, Kevin and others is: how far off center would one need to hit the ball to get a nice little cut on wedges with a swing that would normally produce a very small draw?
Thanks,
Jim S.
Thanks,
Jim S.
Steve Greffen
New
Not a Trackman answer but in my opinion...too close to the hosel!!!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
3-4 dimples
starretj
New
westy
New
why not just move your vectors.
I think thats what golf is.
Just aim your path somewhere different and point the face somewhere else as well. (in 3D of course....
)
If the ball moves the other way you have to aim somewhere else anyways, so just move that path more left and maybe down..... then tune the face.
I think thats what golf is.
Just aim your path somewhere different and point the face somewhere else as well. (in 3D of course....
)If the ball moves the other way you have to aim somewhere else anyways, so just move that path more left and maybe down..... then tune the face.
Thats all fine and good, but we dont always hit it in the center of the face unfortunately. I think what Jim S. and I are trying to figure out is just how much do you have to miss it off center with different clubs to make the ball curve against D-Plane. Forgive me if D-Plane takes into account centeredness, but I dont think it does. Kevin you said 3-4 dimples with a wedge would change Jim's normal draw to a cut shot?? 2-3 with a Driver?? Have you ever had a student with severe toe contact (inch or more from center) on trackman with a face square to true path? What is the "Dynamic Face Angle" if you will?? I understand gear effect will spin it left but how much does the open face negate it I wonder.
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/12769-gear-effect-real-3.html#post152575
Found Jaridyards trackman chart for off center hits. Great Stuff. Hopefully that link above is easy to follow. I'd love to see this with drivers. Kevin, will the newer software versions of Trackman include the final column of jarid's chart (dimples off center)? Thanks again.
Found Jaridyards trackman chart for off center hits. Great Stuff. Hopefully that link above is easy to follow. I'd love to see this with drivers. Kevin, will the newer software versions of Trackman include the final column of jarid's chart (dimples off center)? Thanks again.
softconsult
New
Daniel and I have communicated via PM. He very much knows what he is talking about. The question about standards for Bulge and Roll really meant industry ranges for Bulge and Roll, which is something that is probably difficult to determine.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I hope so. Check out Justin Rose's club delivery. In to out closed face fades.
Looks to me like one dimple off center is the tolerance for center face contact, more than that and it is considered toe or heel. This could lead to a great study of someones ability to consistently hit the same spot, may not even be center. What would be better a 50 per cent consistency of center hits or a 90 per cent consistency of 1.5 dimples off center hits? At least the dimple and a half player would be consistent with their ball flight. As a teacher I feel that the easiest thing to change with a student is their HSP, second would be face angle, third (playing ability dependent) is angle of attack/true path, finally would be center face contact. Anybody out there concur or feel otherwise? It all goes back to what to work on first and what is going to help the student quickest and most. (player dependent of course)
starretj
New
Thanks Dan and others. My reason for asking is because I HATE the look of a draw. Don't ask me why, I just do. I have always wanted to play a little fade, but just can't seem to make it happen on a consistent basis. According to Trackman personnel the sweet spot is about the size of the tip of an ink pin, which means in reality that almost every shot is not on the sweet spot. So I was thinking that instead of continually trying to change my swing to hit a little cut, maybe I could use all of this knowledge and hit the cut with the swing I have. It isn't a problem for me to consistently hit the ball very solid. I don't think that it would be a problem to hit the ball slightly in the heel. As soon as I can get some decent weather on a weekend, I will try this out for myself, I was just wanting a little information from the guys that use trackman as to what to expect.
I think a little cut is harder with the wedges and short irons because of the tendency to hit down on these clubs a little more thereby increasing the horizontal vector.
Thanks,
Jim S.
I think a little cut is harder with the wedges and short irons because of the tendency to hit down on these clubs a little more thereby increasing the horizontal vector.
Thanks,
Jim S.
Steve Hale
New
starretj
New
If I have to play a draw or if the shot calls for it that is fine, but just as a stock shot I don't like it. I really don't like it with the short irons, unless it is necessary. I think that with all of the backspin of the short irons, instead of a draw it tends to be a small pull which I really despise.
Jim S.
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