Start of backswing question . . .

[scratchgolfer]

I am low handicapper who has always struggled with too flat of a backswing / very flat shoulder plane. I could never get the feel of how to get my shoulders to move more vertical going back and whenever I tried, I would get a reverse axis tilt. Was working in the mirror the other day and made a move where it "felt" like my hands actually moved down at the beginning of the backswing. I say "felt" because I am not sure that is really what is happening since it isn't like I was dragging the club head on the ground. This looked really good in the mirror.

So stupid question, do the hands move downward (are at least stay very level for the first inches) at the beginning of the backswing given the axis tilt at address?

Been lurking awhile, but first post, so take it easy on me.

 

[BrendanC]

I'm interested in this cos I'm a flat shoulder turn guy as well. Not a scratchgolfer by any means though.....

It sounds like 'popout'.

'Soft Draw' video might help.

I actually think the fix it has brought about for me has been down to the release it teaches ('toss' release) - getting a fix of the backswing via a downswing feeling sounds weird but my new downswing is radically different to the old hard rotation/hands way out ahead/slide/OTT (hook or push fade) move.

 

[scratchgolfer]

BrendanC,

A case of one is isn't very representative, but I thought I would share with you my experience so far. I finally got my swing on video today (our head pro volunteered to shoot it for me). I can't tell you how many times I feel like something I am doing is a major change, then when I get it on video, it looks like no change. Probably a function of grooving my swing by hitting so many balls over the years . . . a slight change feels very different.

The change I described in my original post truly shows up much different on video . . . and looks a ton better, no more super flat shoulder plane and sucking the club way inside right at the start. For having only made maybe 20 practice backswings in the mirror, I can't believe the difference I am seeing in video. . . night and day.

Since I didn't get any replies for a few days, I thought I would do a little model research on my own. I went into V1 and brought up a few face on swings from the tour pros. I drew a horizontal line across the video right above the level of the glove on their left. Without exception, all of the videos showed that the left hand does not move above its starting vertical position until the hands get to just on the outer portion of the right leg. In some cases the hands traveled level and in some cases the hands moved slightly down before moving back to level and then up. I haven't looked at enough videos yet, but there APPEARS to be a correlation between the setup position and how much secondary tilt the golfer has and if the hands actual move down a bit and how long they move before they get above the vertical height at address. More tilt = move down / longer before hands get above vertical height at address.

 

[BrendanC]

What you are talking about is interesting - if I do it (hands move down takeaway) I get 1) hands to the inside/clubhead to the outside and 2) Lagging clubhead takeaway.

Left shoulder has to go down instead of out and around.

I have a vague memory of reading about a Deane Beman/left shoulder idea that is similar.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I am low handicapper who has always struggled with too flat of a backswing / very flat shoulder plane. I could never get the feel of how to get my shoulders to move more vertical going back and whenever I tried, I would get a reverse axis tilt. Was working in the mirror the other day and made a move where it "felt" like my hands actually moved down at the beginning of the backswing. I say "felt" because I am not sure that is really what is happening since it isn't like I was dragging the club head on the ground. This looked really good in the mirror.

So stupid question, do the hands move downward (are at least stay very level for the first inches) at the beginning of the backswing given the axis tilt at address?

Been lurking awhile, but first post, so take it easy on me.

My first teacher said the hands moved down at the start

 

[BrendanC]

Kevin -

From reading around NHA and Soft Draw, you ended up with severe underplane problems right? Is flat shoulder turn part of that?

Currently using NHA and Soft Draw to cure my own flat shoulder turn/popout/OTT push fade problem.

Dropping the right foot back a little (even with open shoulders) was huge just to open a path to the ball.

Underhand Javelin Toss release is the most fun move in golf.

(sound like the right track?)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Nothing wrong with a flat shoulder turn.

Most underrated move in golf.

Also, if you make an ACTUAL "one piece takeaway," you hands will move down first.

 

[DCgolf]

What is your ball flight, impact, bad shot? That has a lot to do with whether it's right or wrong for U...

 

[BrendanC]

Hmmm - well, here's me a few months ago. Scratch - wonder if this looks anything like your swing.

Bad shots: pushes, generally poor contact, fat shots, trouble hitting the ball with anything less than a hard swing (this swing looks OK, but had real trouble actually playing golf on a golf course.....).

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[siksta]

Brian Manzella
Nothing wrong with a flat shoulder turn.

Most underrated move in golf.


Nice to see Brian talk in this manner it shows his ability to teach many differents ways not a single method. imagine if a teacher told you that you can't turn flat and the cycle starts with changes here then there.Once again you need to find a instructor who truly knows many patterns.