Plane shifts,

[Sonic_Doom]

I have been told that I have a very flattish plane with a little OTT move also. I agree with this after seeing video of my swing.

In experimenting with a steeper plane angle I started to use a reverse shift type of motion (steep backswing then drop onto elbow plane for downswing). Feels like I'm doing the very opposite to OTT.

Impact feels great but tend to hook it more using this, would you recommend this for say a 10 hdcp? or does it matter?

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Was it really over the top to begin with? I take the club back on elbow plane and shift up to turned shoulder and swing down on turned shoulder, but I trace a straight plane line. To someone that doesn't realize what is going on, it appears that I am coming over the top.

 

[Sonic_Doom]

I guess what makes me think its OTT is the shaft motion at the start down (at top the shaft transitions from more or less parallel to pointing slightly right {left-handed} as I start down) and my tendency to pull hook the ball. How can I tell for sure that I am or not OTT?

My understanding of OTT was a DS plane steeper than takeaway, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing if I read you right.

Either way, I'd like to cure my tendency for pulls, especially with the shorter clubs.

Corey.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I guess what makes me think its OTT is the shaft motion at the start down (at top the shaft transitions from more or less parallel to pointing slightly right {left-handed} as I start down) and my tendency to pull hook the ball. How can I tell for sure that I am or not OTT?

My understanding of OTT was a DS plane steeper than takeaway, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing if I read you right.

Either way, I'd like to cure my tendency for pulls, especially with the shorter clubs.

Corey.

OTT means that the butt end of the club, on the downswing is pointing to the inside of the plane line. As Tom said, you can "look" OTT because you took it away on the elbow plane and came down the TSP.

What tends to happen with this type of motion is that if you never "reach" the TSP on the backswing, you will try and find it on the downswing and could very well come over the top of it.

 

[mb6606]

"My understanding of OTT was a DS plane steeper than takeaway, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing if I read you right. "

I think what Tom mean't is that he addresses on the elbow plane than shift to the turned shoulder plane on the backswing. Then swings down on the TSP.
That is not being steeper on the downswing. HK stated that most golfers return to impact with their right forearm to high (to steep and off plane).

 

[Tom Bartlett]

No, I meant that I swing back on elbow plane then shift to TS plane and swing down on TS plane.
Over the top does not mean a steeper downswing it means that you are swinging left of (coming over) the plane line.

"How do I tell if I am swinging over the top?"
Assuming your lie angle is correct...look at your divots. If they go left of where you were aiming then you came over the top.

Pull hooks could be that you are swinging on plane and just have a closed clubface. Remember, the ball starts pretty much where the clubface is pointing at separation and then curves right or left depending on the path of the club relative to the clubface.

 

[Sonic_Doom]

What tends to happen with this type of motion is that if you never "reach" the TSP on the backswing, you will try and find it on the downswing and could very well come over the top of it.

This probably fits me cuz I know I don't reach the TSP, and that's where I started to fiddle with a steeper backswing plane - reverse shift.

So, lets say I do come over it, could the reverse shift help or hurt me, or should I focus on something else?

Corey

 

[Brian Manzella]

Doom,

You sure know your "Golfing Machine" lingo.

Anyhoo, lets say—just for fun—that you do have a backswing slightly below what I, Brian Manzella, and Homer Kelly in the The Golfing Machine and Joe Daniels, President of The Golfing Machine, and Ben Doyle, etc., etc., all think IS the Turned Shoulder Plane, ala...

...Let's say your backswing IS below that angle—which by the way, I am sure it is.

You say that you had a tendency to "Pull-Hook" the ball. And you want to know how you can tell whether or not you ARE coming "Over the top."

Pull-Hook - Ball starts left and flies further left.

Path (Plane Line) could be..

Too far to the RIGHT
Too far to the LEFT
or
Straight​

So a PULL-HOOK, per se, wil give you ZERO clue to whether ot not you are hitting a pull hook.

ZERO!

So my advice is to test the clubface...

Tell me when you are ready to go out and test it.

 

[Sonic_Doom]

My top of backswing position is definitely below the pics you posted, in fact my hands are just slightly higher than the shoulders in elevation

If I need turf to test the clubface then I won't be able to until April

 

[Brian Manzella]

Don't worry about the clubface for a bit...

Tell me about WHY you decided to use a reverse shift?

 

[Sonic_Doom]

I feel like my top of backswing position is to low or flat and I was trying to get closer to the plane in the pics you posted above.

When I took the club back and down on that plane, I just couldn't deliver the club properly - felt like a disconnected, weak cut type motion.

So, I tried to take it back on that plane then flatten it out somewhat to be able to deliver the club from the inside. I'm trying to blend what looks better on the takeaway and what feels better coming down.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here is the deal Sonic Doom:

According to you, you have a "flat-ish" backswing. I am sure you do.

You also seem have a problem with my explanation of the Turned Shoulder Plane, as in: "If it really were the Turned Shoulder Plane, and I went UP that plane and DOWN that plane, I'd be able to hit it. But, the way you, Brian, describe the Turned Shoulder Plane, when I go UP and DOWN that plane, it feels like a disconnected, weak cut type motion. So I was forced to have to make a Reverse-Shift in order to make solid 3-Dimensional impact."

Here is my advice to you:

If you want to make a ZERO SHIFT swing, go ahead with your "In-Between-The-Turned Shoulder Plane-and-the-Elbow Plane" Plane.

Don't reverse shift.

It is my opinion, that what you are finding is this:

The folks that SELL a ZERO SHIFT swing, have figured out it is easier to do on this "In-Between-The-Turned Shoulder Plane-and-the-Elbow Plane" Plane.

They figured this out becuase they have a hard time with the REAL TSP downswing, because as a group they tend to swing to far to the right.

Sounds like you—and they—both may be closet Double-Shifters.



If you'll post your video, and I'll help you anyway I can.

 

[Sonic_Doom]

No, I haven't. I only just go the book last year and so I'm still figuring out what I am doing component wise. That said, I think I'm on the elbow plane now judging by the photos.