4, 1, 2, 3....a Brief Description Please
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For Swingers, the recommended application is 4,2,3 in sequential order. Accumulator #1, the Muscle Power of the driving right forearm, is typicaly passive in the Swingers stroke.
Hitters might typicaly use 1,2,3 simultaneously but do not generaly use the gyroscopic Body power of the #4.
I guess this might be a good opportunity to begin our discussion of whether it is possible or advisable to have a True 4 Barrel sroke
The Four Barrel Stroke is for Hitters only. Three Barrel is the maximum for Swingers. The sequence always begins with #4 -- nothing can happen until the Left Arm moves. Then #1, #2, #3 for Hitters. Swingers omit #1 because Centrifugal Force drives the Club, not Muscular Thrust. So, their remaining sequence is #2, #3.quote:Originally posted by Triad
For Swingers, the recommended application is 4,2,3 in sequential order. Accumulator #1, the Muscle Power of the driving right forearm, is typicaly passive in the Swingers stroke.
Hitters might typicaly use 1,2,3 simultaneously but do not generaly use the gyroscopic Body power of the #4.
I guess this might be a good opportunity to begin our discussion of whether it is possible or advisable to have a True 4 Barrel sroke
Though both Hitters and Swingers use the Right Shoulder -- the Driver of the #4 Accumulator -- they use it differently. Swingers use it to 'crank the Gyroscope' and blast the essentially inert Left Arm off the chest. After taking up the initial Clubhead inertia -- the 'slack' -- Hitters use the Right Shoulder as a Launching Pad from which to Drive the Bent Right Arm toward Impact.
THIS COMES FROM THE TGM FORUM:
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For our guests that may be scratching their heads, here is a mini/short review of some of the items mentioned in this thread, in particular "The Barrel's." SO, old timers, please click away.
When talk is about Accumulators, Barrels, Combinations and such, one is basically speaking about the 4 power sources in the golf stroke. They are:
1. The proper uncocking of the left wrist.
2. The blasting of the left arm off the chest with the body pivot.
3. The synchronized roll of the left wrist through Impact.
4. The driving power of the right forearm.
Easy enough to know them but much more difficult to apply and synchronize properly. Since there are 4, players may use 1-4 or any combination. No matter if you Hit or Swing, the release sequence is 4,1,2,3. Simply meaning that you do not want to put one power source release in front of another. Example: Let's say you are using 1, 2, 3 above. That is the sequence that they need to be released. You would not, uncock the left wrist (#1), roll the left through Impact (#3), and then blast the arm off with Pivot (#2).
Here is the key and where many amateurs get crossed up. In Swinging, the right arm is inactively thrusting, it is inert. In Hitting the right arm actively thrusting. If you are Swinging the right arm should NOT be the focal point. If it is, then you are moving from a Swinging Procedure to a Hitting Procedure. What is the significance? The more you mix Hitting and Swinging Components, the more your game will suffer. Can you get away with it? Yes. But, you will suffer inconsistencies. This is why one must decide from the get go, "Am I going to Hit or Swing?"
So your scratching your head and going, "What's the big deal?"
Mastered 3 Barrel Procedure = Tour Player
Mastered 4 Barrel = Nicklaus, Hogan and Tiger
Pretty significant difference between the groups. Yes? Imagine us amateurs where we fit into the order.
Hopefully this helps our visitors. There is much more that applies to this but hopefully it gives a small taste and ground work for more detail and shows we are not speaking in tongues.
(I copied this post from Golfingrandy (Dude on this forum) on the TGM Forum. Hope it helps.)
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For our guests that may be scratching their heads, here is a mini/short review of some of the items mentioned in this thread, in particular "The Barrel's." SO, old timers, please click away.
When talk is about Accumulators, Barrels, Combinations and such, one is basically speaking about the 4 power sources in the golf stroke. They are:
1. The proper uncocking of the left wrist.
2. The blasting of the left arm off the chest with the body pivot.
3. The synchronized roll of the left wrist through Impact.
4. The driving power of the right forearm.
Easy enough to know them but much more difficult to apply and synchronize properly. Since there are 4, players may use 1-4 or any combination. No matter if you Hit or Swing, the release sequence is 4,1,2,3. Simply meaning that you do not want to put one power source release in front of another. Example: Let's say you are using 1, 2, 3 above. That is the sequence that they need to be released. You would not, uncock the left wrist (#1), roll the left through Impact (#3), and then blast the arm off with Pivot (#2).
Here is the key and where many amateurs get crossed up. In Swinging, the right arm is inactively thrusting, it is inert. In Hitting the right arm actively thrusting. If you are Swinging the right arm should NOT be the focal point. If it is, then you are moving from a Swinging Procedure to a Hitting Procedure. What is the significance? The more you mix Hitting and Swinging Components, the more your game will suffer. Can you get away with it? Yes. But, you will suffer inconsistencies. This is why one must decide from the get go, "Am I going to Hit or Swing?"
So your scratching your head and going, "What's the big deal?"
Mastered 3 Barrel Procedure = Tour Player
Mastered 4 Barrel = Nicklaus, Hogan and Tiger
Pretty significant difference between the groups. Yes? Imagine us amateurs where we fit into the order.
Hopefully this helps our visitors. There is much more that applies to this but hopefully it gives a small taste and ground work for more detail and shows we are not speaking in tongues.
(I copied this post from Golfingrandy (Dude on this forum) on the TGM Forum. Hope it helps.)
(Here is the correction, also originally posted on the TGM Forum by MBCPRO, for the sequences.)
Randy,
I think you need to check your numbers in your post, the post is great but I think your numbers are off.
1. right elbow
2. left wrist
3. left hand (roll power)
4. left arm
sequence stays the same 4, 1,2,3
Must be the head injury.
Randy,
I think you need to check your numbers in your post, the post is great but I think your numbers are off.
1. right elbow
2. left wrist
3. left hand (roll power)
4. left arm
sequence stays the same 4, 1,2,3
Must be the head injury.
drewitgolf
New
Check your numbers.
The release sequence related to Power Accumulators, there stroke variation and pressure point combination.
1. The driving power of the right forearm.
2. The proper uncocking of the left wrist.
3. The synchronized roll of the left wrist through Impact.
4. The blasting of the left arm off the chest with the body pivot.
For uncompensated strokes:
Swingers 4-2-3
Hitters 1-2-3
Increase overlap to increase thrust. Decrease overlap to increase velocity.
The release sequence related to Power Accumulators, there stroke variation and pressure point combination.
1. The driving power of the right forearm.
2. The proper uncocking of the left wrist.
3. The synchronized roll of the left wrist through Impact.
4. The blasting of the left arm off the chest with the body pivot.
For uncompensated strokes:
Swingers 4-2-3
Hitters 1-2-3
Increase overlap to increase thrust. Decrease overlap to increase velocity.
[/quote]
The Four Barrel Stroke is for Hitters only. Three Barrel is the maximum for Swingers. The sequence always begins with #4 -- nothing can happen until the Left Arm moves. Then #1, #2, #3 for Hitters. Swingers omit #1 because Centrifugal Force drives the Club, not Muscular Thrust. So, their remaining sequence is #2, #3.
Though both Hitters and Swingers use the Right Shoulder -- the Driver of the #4 Accumulator -- they use it differently. Swingers use it to 'crank the Gyroscope' and blast the essentially inert Left Arm off the chest. After taking up the initial Clubhead inertia -- the 'slack' -- Hitters use the Right Shoulder as a Launching Pad from which to Drive the Bent Right Arm toward Impact.
[/quote]
Master,
Have you now changed your earlier position that the 4 Barrel stroke is unattainable/inadvisable but reserved this option solely for the more 'sophisticated' motion of the Hitter?
Triad
The Four Barrel Stroke is for Hitters only. Three Barrel is the maximum for Swingers. The sequence always begins with #4 -- nothing can happen until the Left Arm moves. Then #1, #2, #3 for Hitters. Swingers omit #1 because Centrifugal Force drives the Club, not Muscular Thrust. So, their remaining sequence is #2, #3.
Though both Hitters and Swingers use the Right Shoulder -- the Driver of the #4 Accumulator -- they use it differently. Swingers use it to 'crank the Gyroscope' and blast the essentially inert Left Arm off the chest. After taking up the initial Clubhead inertia -- the 'slack' -- Hitters use the Right Shoulder as a Launching Pad from which to Drive the Bent Right Arm toward Impact.
[/quote]
Master,
Have you now changed your earlier position that the 4 Barrel stroke is unattainable/inadvisable but reserved this option solely for the more 'sophisticated' motion of the Hitter?
Triad
I have always recommended the Four Barrel Stroke for Full Power -- but only for Hitters. Any post you saw recommending a Three Barrel maximum applied only to Swingers. There were many posts on other sites earlier this year -- almost all relating to the Theoretical Four Accumulator 'Maximum Participation' Stroke Pattern in TGM's Third Edition. In those sequenced posts, qualifiers as to the Swinger/Hitter distinction almost certainly were omitted.
If you want a Four Barrel Swing, fine. In Homer's words, "Fly at it." But...here's the true TGM bottom Line:
Hitter -- Four Barrel Maximum.
Swinger -- Three Barrel Maximum.
Like it or not, this was Homer Kelley's stated (and recorded) position.
In a nutshell:
The Hitter's Bent Right Arm is driven by Muscular Thrust and Pushes the Club through Impact. The Swinger's essentially inert Left Arm is Driven by Centrifugal Force and Pulls the Club through Impact. You cannot Push the Club through Impact with Right Arm Muscular Thrust and Pull the Club through Impact with Left Arm Centrifugal Force at the same time.
Over time, Homer came to see that very clearly, and he was adamant in his denunciation of the Four Barrel Swing. He was equally adamant in his recommendation of the Four Barrel Hit, providing the Right Shoulder was used properly (as discussed in my prior post).
For me, having been down this road before, this is 'end of story.' I refuse to debate it further, on this site or anywhere else. So, 'have at it' if you will, but I'll watch from the grandstand.
This is an incredibly important post, and I sincerely -- and without ego -- hope you guys appreciate it.
Meanwhile...
Pass the peanuts and crackerjacks, please.
[8D]
Many thanks. I certainly would not engage you in a debate over what Mr Kellys True thoughts or intentions were. Your G.O.LF. resume speaks for itself. I would be like the natives shooting arrows at an oncoming tank. A nobel effort, but doomed to failure.
I would, however, like to ask you for bit of clarification. To utilize the full power of the four barrel Hitting stroke, which (if any) of the components in the basic Hitting pattern (12-1-0)need to be altered.
I am thinking, probably number 11 (Pressure Points) but possibly number 10 (Hinge Action), number 19 (Lag Loading) but probably not number 20 (Trigger Type).
Regards,
Triad
Ironically, Triad, the three components you mention that will be affected are not. The one you mention that won't be affected is. And then there's the one you didn't mention. As a professional money manager, I can identify with that state of affairs: I have bought many stocks that have gone down; I have sold many stocks that have gone up; and I have let more than my share simply 'get away.' Hopefully, we'll both do better next time!
Here's the rundown on the necessary 12-1-0 Pattern changes:
1. Component #4 (Stroke - Variation). Add Power Accumulator #4, i.e., the Right Shoulder Turn Thrust as the initial acceleration of the Loaded Power Package per 2-M-4. Component #11 (Pressure Point Combination) is unaffected because Pressure Point #4 is not added. Unlike the Swinger who uses Right Shoulder Turn Thrust to actively drive the Left Arm through Pressure Point #4, the Hitter uses his Bent Right Arm to drive the Left Arm through Pressure Point #1. Accordingly, he does not 'crank the Swinger's Gyroscope' through Pressure Point #4, i.e., the contact point of the Left Arm at the side. Instead, the Right Shoulder merely overcomes the initial inertia of the Club -- takes up the 'slack' -- and then serves as the Right Arm's Launching Pad.
2. Component #20 (Trigger Type). Combine the Right Arm Throw with the Delivery Path Throw (10-20-D).
3. Component #24 (Release Type). Substitue the Automatic Snap Release (10-24-E) for the Non-Auto Sweep.
Though it doesn't affect the Hitter's Four Accumulator Power, let me add a final thought. Component #9 (Address) is the Standard Variation (10-9-A) with its Bent Left and Flat Right Wrists. This is the same as the Swinger's Address. It was Homer Kelley's intention to change as few Components as possible in order to ease the transition from the Drive Loading Pattern to the Drag Loading Pattern or vice versa.
Nevertheless, once the 'customizing stage' is reached, he felt that it is more advantageous for the Hitter (with his 'carry back' Motion and Loading) to start from the Impact position (10-9-B). That way, the Impact Alignments never change. He did not feel that way for the Swinger, whose 'Swing Back' Motion and Loading benefits from the Standard Address conditions.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
So, Lynn would my pattern be four-barrel?
Holenone wrote:
[/quote]Ironically, Triad, the three components you mention that will be affected are not. The one you mention that won't be affected is. And then there's the one you didn't mention. As a professional money manager, I can identify with that state of affairs: I have bought many stocks that have gone down; I have sold many stocks that have gone up; and I have let more than my share simply 'get away.' Hopefully, we'll both do better next time![/quote]
Thanks for the clarification. Your post gave me a real laugh at my expense. If one can't be absolutely correct then one might as well be absolutely wrong Which it appears that I was in this instance.
G.O.L.F is less forgiving than the stock market. In G.O.L.F there is right, and there is wrong. In the stock market sometimes you end up being right, but for the wrong reasons.
STL,
Triad
[/quote]Ironically, Triad, the three components you mention that will be affected are not. The one you mention that won't be affected is. And then there's the one you didn't mention. As a professional money manager, I can identify with that state of affairs: I have bought many stocks that have gone down; I have sold many stocks that have gone up; and I have let more than my share simply 'get away.' Hopefully, we'll both do better next time!
[/quote]Thanks for the clarification. Your post gave me a real laugh at my expense. If one can't be absolutely correct then one might as well be absolutely wrong
Which it appears that I was in this instance.G.O.L.F is less forgiving than the stock market. In G.O.L.F there is right, and there is wrong. In the stock market sometimes you end up being right, but for the wrong reasons.
STL,
Triad
Holenone,
We've previously discussed Larry Nelson's Address positioning (with his Impact Hands, but without the Right Forearm on Plane or Hips Shifted and Turned). How far would Mr. Kelley want us to go with the suggested Impact Address? Is it simply Impact Hands, or should we go all the way with it?
[?]
From your recent posts on your new (Hitter's) use of your Right Shoulder, I would say definitely 'yes.' If not, you're well on your way! Especially considering the other 'tip-offs:' Your Hands at Shoulder Level at the Top (instead of beyond); your 'high' Clubshaft (instead of Horizontal); and your Angled Hinging through Impact (instead of Horizontal Hinging).
For a 'Purity' Check, monitor:
1. The Left Wrist Action to make sure it complies with 10-18-C-1;
2. The Loading of the Right Elbow (instead of the Left Wrist) at the Top;
3. The Simultaneous Release (not Sequenced) per 4-D-0;
4. The Right Arm/Delivery Combination Throws (10-20-B/D) versus the Wrist Throw (10-20-E).
5. Most of all, monitor your Release: Is the Club being Thrown Out by Centrifugal Force or is it being Driven Out with Muscular Thrust?
I would also recommend the Impact Address Position (10-9-B) with the Right Forearm well-Bent and precisely On Plane.
I go 'all the way' with it, Armourall. Just be careful not to exaggerate the Body Position. Comparatively Squared Away is all you need.
My personal keys are:
1. My Lowered, Centered and Stationary Head positon;
2. My Anchored Knees and Feet (usually a bit heavier on the Left than on the Right);
3. My Left and Right Wrist Alignments;
4. The Feel of the Pressure Points in my Hands, especially #1 in Hitting and #2 in Swinging and the always 'easy' Right Forefinger #3;
5. The #1 and #3 Pressure Points facing down the Angle of Approach, not toward the Target;
6. My Right Forearm (and Elbow) On Plane and pointing at the Plane Line on its own Angle of Approach;
7. My raised Left Shoulder and lowered Right Shoulder that gives me 'plenty of Bent Right Arm' to Drive through the Ball.
8. In a nutshell, my Head and my Anchors and the overall 'set' of my Flying Wedges Assembly.
Writing this out, it seems like a lot. But it's not, really. Remember, I've worked on each of these things individually over a long period of time. So, it's not so much a matter of me doing something as it is a matter of the warning light flashing red if I don't do it!
I know this:
At Address, it is not unusual for me to have the distinct sensation -- particularly given the Pressures established in my Hands and the Feel of my On Plane Right Forearm -- that I have already hit the Ball!
So if swingers aren't supposed to focus on the right arm, then what is all this business on the magic of the right forearm, focus on the right forearm and pp3 tracing the plane line? All this time, I have been mixing hitting and hitting by focusing on fanning of the right forearm on pickup, and aiming it and pp3 at the aiming point on the downstroke. So what should swingers focus on? If I focus on pp3, aren't I automaticallyfocuing on the right am because the right flying wedge includes pp3 and the right forearm?
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