A Note to all about improving - BASIC MOTION

[Michael Jacobs]

With the golf season coming into full stride in NY I have been busy - working with some students who are coming with some bad info and a poor interpretation of the Basic Motion

Basic Motion = Driving Tacks or Spikes

Example would be driving tees into the ground with the cutting edge of the club on a chip shot (As Ben Doyle has had most of his students do from day one)

It is in Chapter 12 - Basic Motion Cirriculum that a student work on the basic motion with Zero pivot ........... ABOUT 2 FEET IN BOTH DIRECTIONS

NOTE - 2 FEET IS VERY SMALL --- ITS NOT A PITCH SHOT WHERE THE CLUB ENDS DEEP INTO FOLLOW THRU WITH THE CLUBSHAFT ON A VERY STEEP ANGLE WHERE A PERSON IS CHASING AFTER A PUSHED GOLF CLUB - That is what I am seeing a lot of -

I recommend FOR AMATEUR AND OVER ACCELERATING GOLFERS to do what Ben has taught from day 1 , from what he learned from Homer on day one - To use the concept of doing your basic motion with a short efficient pivot - learn to drive your hands through the pivot - IT WILL HELP AMATEURS AND OVER ACCELERATING GOLFERS to lead themseleves into bigger swings easier!!!!!

Happy Golfing

 

[Bill Miracle]

OK Mike, since you dropped the hook,

With the golf season coming into full stride in NY I have been busy - working with some students who are coming with some bad info and a poor interpretation of the Basic Motion

Basic Motion = Driving Tacks or Spikes

Example would be driving tees into the ground with the cutting edge of the club on a chip shot (As Ben Doyle has had most of his students do from day one)

It is in Chapter 12 - Basic Motion Cirriculum that a student work on the basic motion with Zero pivot ........... ABOUT 2 FEET IN BOTH DIRECTIONS

NOTE - 2 FEET IS VERY SMALL --- ITS NOT A PITCH SHOT WHERE THE CLUB ENDS DEEP INTO FOLLOW THRU WITH THE CLUBSHAFT ON A VERY STEEP ANGLE WHERE A PERSON IS CHASING AFTER A PUSHED GOLF CLUB - That is what I am seeing a lot of -

I recommend FOR AMATEUR AND OVER ACCELERATING GOLFERS to do what Ben has taught from day 1 , from what he learned from Homer on day one - To use the concept of doing your basic motion with a short efficient pivot - learn to drive your hands through the pivot - IT WILL HELP AMATEURS AND OVER ACCELERATING GOLFERS to lead themseleves into bigger swings easier!!!!!

Happy Golfing

I'm biting! VIDEO!

I've been meaning to start a thread about over accelerating based on your mentioning it in some threads. I think I know what you are talking about above but...I am a visual learner. A short little Manzella-esk video would be welcome!

 

[Brian Manzella]

It is called..

"Confessions of Former Flipper."

 

[golfer24]

From personal experience making a basic and aquired motion with zero pivot will cause over acceleration and takes the club off plane. May work for some but not for me.

 

[golfbulldog]

my experience ( personal) with basic motion...

Basic Motion = Driving Tacks or Spikes

Example would be driving tees into the ground with the cutting edge of the club on a chip shot (As Ben Doyle has had most of his students do from day one)

It is in Chapter 12 - Basic Motion Cirriculum that a student work on the basic motion with Zero pivot ........... ABOUT 2 FEET IN BOTH DIRECTIONS

NOTE - 2 FEET IS VERY SMALL --- ITS NOT A PITCH SHOT WHERE THE CLUB ENDS DEEP INTO FOLLOW THRU WITH THE CLUBSHAFT ON A VERY STEEP ANGLE WHERE A PERSON IS CHASING AFTER A PUSHED GOLF CLUB - That is what I am seeing a lot of -

I recommend FOR AMATEUR AND OVER ACCELERATING GOLFERS to do what Ben has taught from day 1 , from what he learned from Homer on day one - To use the concept of doing your basic motion with a short efficient pivot - learn to drive your hands through the pivot - IT WILL HELP AMATEURS AND OVER ACCELERATING GOLFERS to lead themseleves into bigger swings easier!!!!!

Happy Golfing

Zero pivot swinging basic motion versus Chip-pitch small pivot basic motion...

These are very different IMHO...

Zero pivot swing basic motion allows only active accumulator 4 to pull... really left shoulder dominated....no pivot...minimal lag pressure sensation

Chip-pitch Basic motionis pivot moving hands...like ?Ben Doyle hitting tyres (movable and immovable/punchpress?...no double dribble? is that right??)... gives a much more golf-like sensation...more lag sensation a TRUE mini swing.

This is where Ben Doyle's practical experience of teaching real people seems to seperate him from the book literal interpretion...

I have yet to see any convincing video of book-literal ZERO PIVOT swing basic motion.... everyone uses some hip motion from what i have seen??


Zero pivot much easier with hitting action basic motion... 3rd edition basic single accumulator motion (non- pivot) specifies drive load ( hitting) and accumulator 1( straightening right elbow)... now i know these are not binding but it is more natural way of doing zero pivot... right forearm only.

Both allow experience of alignements but a swinger who experiences alignments with zero pivot... well where is the centrifugal force in that... and CF is surely as important to experience as alignements ...

Been watching "How to buils a G.O.L.F game" and "flipper"... they both catch the big dog's tail!!! its all in the Butt??

 

[Brian Manzella]

Zero pivot swinging basic motion versus Chip-pitch small pivot basic motion...

These are very different IMHO...

Zero pivot swing basic motion allows only active accumulator 4 to pull... really left shoulder dominated....no pivot...minimal lag pressure sensation

Chip-pitch Basic motionis pivot moving hands...like ?Ben Doyle hitting tyres (movable and immovable/punchpress?...no double dribble? is that right??)... gives a much more golf-like sensation...more lag sensation a TRUE mini swing.

This is where Ben Doyle's practical experience of teaching real people seems to seperate him from the book literal interpretion...

I have yet to see any convincing video of book-literal ZERO PIVOT swing basic motion.... everyone uses some hip motion from what i have seen??


Zero pivot much easier with hitting action basic motion... 3rd edition basic single accumulator motion (non- pivot) specifies drive load ( hitting) and accumulator 1( straightening right elbow)... now i know these are not binding but it is more natural way of doing zero pivot... right forearm only.

Both allow experience of alignements but a swinger who experiences alignments with zero pivot... well where is the centrifugal force in that... and CF is surely as important to experience as alignements ...

Been watching "How to buils a G.O.L.F game" and "flipper"... they both catch the big dog's tail!!! its all in the Butt??

This is one of the single most important posts—on one the single most important threads in Golfing Machine history.

ANYONE WHO TEACHES THIS WAY (no pivot basic motion, etc.) PLEASE LISTEN:

Come to the next TGM Summit and we will get three groups of golfers: one will get "no pivot basic motion, etc." Second will get Ben's "Full Pivot Chip, Pitch, Chip-Pitch, Punch, etc" (which I do use in many cases) and one will get one of my "full-swing first, chip shot last" approaches.

We all get two hours. We'll video before and after, go inside and figure out which one worked the best.

We may find that all three are good, some are better than others some of the time, or that one or two of them is inferior.

Do you have confidence in your approach to put it to the test and peer review and LEGIT testing???

It is for the good of Golf and G.O.L.F.

 

[ChrisSorenson]

XplosiveGolf: ...use the concept of doing your basic motion with a short efficient pivot - learn to drive your hands through the pivot - IT WILL HELP AMATEURS AND OVER ACCELERATING GOLFERS to lead themseleves into bigger swings easier!!!!!

I love this sentence

 

[Michael Jacobs]

This is one of the single most important posts—on one the single most important threads in Golfing Machine history.

ANYONE WHO TEACHES THIS WAY (no pivot basic motion, etc.) PLEASE LISTEN:

Come to the next TGM Summit and we will get three groups of golfers: one will get "no pivot basic motion, etc." Second will get Ben's "Full Pivot Chip, Pitch, Chip-Pitch, Punch, etc" (which I do use in many cases) and one will get one of my "full-swing first, chip shot last" approaches.

We all get two hours. We'll video before and after, go inside and figure out which one worked the best.

We may find that all three are good, some are better than others some of the time, or that one or two of them is inferior.

Do you have confidence in your approach to put it to the test and peer review and LEGIT testing???

It is for the good of Golf and G.O.L.F.

-- Thanks Brian - Perfect points

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks, MJ.

Folks...I am telling you, this ONE TOPIC ALONE could make or break the future of TGM.

Let's get it OUT IN THE OPEN, TEST IT, and GET IT RIGHT.

(Of course, personally, this is ZERO problem for me, cuz I do not teach it at all).

 

[Martee]

Sounds like a worth while effort to test them.

How many people, if any do the basic motion from Impact Fix position?

I learned basic motion from Doyle's video, in fact the chip, pitch and punch is has become my safety valve, anytime my stroke needs attention, I do these three motion before taking any full strokes. In fact I have used this on the course, no ball, but these motion to get the back on track when the stroke starts going sideways.

Basic Motion and a swinging motion is not one I have been able to master consistencly. In fact I have only seen a few do it consistently. Probably still not understanding it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sounds like a worth while effort to test them.

Martee, I buy you dinner at any Ruth's Chris in the country if ANYONE wants to test "that" against Ben's version or ANYTHING I teach.

I learned basic motion from Doyle's video, in fact the chip, pitch and punch is has become my safety valve, anytime my stroke needs attention, I do these three motion before taking any full strokes. In fact I have used this on the course, no ball, but these motion to get the back on track when the stroke starts going sideways.

Ben's version--PIVOT ON ALL STROKES (at least on the downstroke) is very good. The "other" version is --in my opinion, and MANY, MANY others-- inferior.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Not for Putting.

It should be mentioned--thanks, Leo--that Ben does not want you to pivot in Putting.

I use to teach Ben's Chip/Pitch/Punch to 90% of my students, now it is like 10%.

So....what I'm saying is that "short to long" is NOT always the best way for every golfer, EVEN IF IT IS THE BEST SHORT TO LONG METHOD BEING USED.

 

[Martee]

Martee, I buy you dinner at any Ruth's Chris in the country if ANYONE wants to test "that" against Ben's version or ANYTHING I teach.



Ben's version--PIVOT ON ALL STROKES (at least on the downstroke) is very good. The "other" version is --in my opinion, and MANY, MANY others-- inferior.

Yup, and I have a pivot on the downstroke. Joe D. had me chipping without it, but I guess I have a happy body, cause it wants to move. My last effort under some others was to begin at Impact Position (maybe psuedo) which worked with the hitting stroke, but like I said I am pretty much a disappointment when it comes to swinging, say maybe 1 or 2 out of 5 okay but not near the quality of the hitting.

Now putting is a no pivot basic hitting motion and it works well, but that stroke is really less than 2'.

Now I have seen it done by several and with good results. I am not a model for the no pivot basic motion.

 

[golfer24]

This is a big issue as there are so many big names endorsing both. I believe that zero pivot is un-natural and un-golfllike for Basic and aquired motion. It's seems to me that the zero pivot is just Homer's opinion as to what works best. Most of the book has options based on science however this Basic motion stuff was not.

 

[Martee]

This is a big issue as there are so many big names endorsing both. I believe that zero pivot is un-natural and un-golfllike for Basic and aquired motion. It's seems to me that the zero pivot is just Homer's opinion as to what works best. Most of the book has options based on science however this Basic motion stuff was not.

I came to the conclusion that Homer was attempting to break the Full Stroke down into useful strokes while starting out on focus on a small subset of components and then adding more at the next stage till you got to the final stage. This is my opinion of his approach to learning the golf stroke. It has merit but it is not the only way. I believe this was his effort to help AI's develop a teaching approach (not a method).

 

[golfbulldog]

small strokes to learn large strokes...

A small stroke is performed slowly with time to concentrate on specific sensations so that one can learn. There are less moving parts and the parts have smaller range of motion... it makes sense for some to learn this way.

WHAT IS BEING LEARNT?

Ideally, these are the learning criteria... a check list for things to be learnt:-

-the impact alignments
-the lag sensation
-the other associated pressure points
-the source of the power
-source of power same as full stroke

and, as an academic exercise, one can theorise as to whether it is push or pull but that loses some usefulness if the pull in the small stroke has a different power source to the large stroke IMHO.

Therefore we have 3 options for a basic motion stroke:-
ZEro pivot swing, small pivot swing and zero pivot hitting

ZERO PIVOT HITTING
Alignments - check
Lag sensation - check
Power source - accumulator 1/right elbow/ triceps - check
Associated pressure points -accumulator 1 / pressure point 1 - check
Power source same as full stroke - check

So that works out well.

ZERO PIVOT SWINGING
Alignments - check
Lag sensation - ...minimal at best... if you never felt lag sensation before you will not discover it this way....
Power source - left shoulder pull / accumulator 4 / NO centrifugal force
Associated pressure points - NONE
Power source same as full stroke - no...NO CENTRIFUGAL FORCE... DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE FROM PIVOT STROKES

SO ALL YOU REALLY GET IS AN ODD SENSATION OF MOTION WITH IDEAL ALIGNMENTS and minimal lag sensation

SMALL PIVOT SWINGING BASIC MOTION
Alignments - check
Lag sensation - much more like it ...bit of float loading means you go from zero lag sensation to loads very rapidly... even a sensory neuropath can feel this!!
Power source - PIVOT...CENTRIFUGAL FORCE
Associated pressure points - a bit of 3? maybe
Power source same as full stroke - YES - PIVOT MOVES THE POWER PACKAGE... CF causes release

So you get the alignments ( flat left wrist and staright plane line), lag sensation and it feels like golf!! That is TGM...surely!

What do you lose... the academic "nicety" of using pivot in something that is supposed to be pivot less...

Have been a little polemic ...well...

See what you think....

 

[Brian Manzella]

Nice thoughtful Post, Bulldog...

I will post a video on this, and I greatly appreciate all the nice PM's on the subject.

But for now, doesn't it matter how the great chipper and pitcher have done it.

Here is a short list of the best Chippers and Pitchers of Modern Times:

Ben Hogan
Freddie Haas
Seve
Tom Watson
Berhard Langer
Tiger

Trust me, no ZERO Pivot chips or close-to ZERO pivot pitches.

The BEST OF ALL TIME!!

Most really good pitchers of the ball on Today's Tour NEVER EVEN HIT A SHOT that stays up the left arm, unless it is VERY SHORT (The so-called "Tour Pitch').

Folks, I know the answer, but, I have no problem with a LEGIT TEST so see what works best.

 

[dodger]

In the current golf magazine there is a picture of David Toms hitting a 20-30 yard pitch off a fairway lie. He is ranked in the top five on tour from this range. He is caught post-impact, which shows a flat left wrist, small amount of grass flying indicating a divot, and the right knee and hip pivoting towards the target. Perfect loft on the clubhead is maintained and the ball pops up perfectly. What I would like to understand is why there is no focus on over pivoting in the back stroke in these shots. I use zero pivot on short shots in the backstroke to avoid over rotation, which leads to poor impact. As the stroke gets longer the forward pivot increases without conscious thought. Is the point to avoid using a zero pivot to freeze over the ball or is it intended to allow the swing dictate the pivot on the downstroke?

 

[rwh]

He Copied It

I think starting with the small ("basic") motion is 90% "seems as if". Has anyone considered that Mr. Kelley started with the small motion because he copied it from a teaching professional?

If you read 12-5-0, you will find the real reason that he chose to start with a small motion.

Bottom line: There is no athletic imperative that requires one to learn the golf swing by starting small.

 

[bcoak]

It seems like every time you see a poor chipper, beginner, hacker they do not have any pivot, just arm movement. The result always seems to be that the left wrist breaks down and they scoop it or hit it dead fat.