Above the TSP (Turned Shoulder Plane) for Tour Pros?

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mjstrong

mjstrong

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Looking through a lot of PGA Tour pro swing sequences, it seems that a lot of them are slightly above the TSP. Only slightly mind you, but it seems that a lot of them are in a position such that the bottom of their left arm traces a line back to the ball. On average, this only puts them at maybe 5 or so degrees above the TSP, but above it none the less.

My source: Golf Digest swing sequences from the last couple of years, I'd be happy to provide specific examples if anyone wants.

Brian and other experts, your thoughts? I've heard that good golf can be played on either side of it, but that the best players in the world were generally right on the TSP. Does this still hold true?
 
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bray

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Some Tour Pro's Back Swings go up the Squared Shoulder Plane on the Backswing.

Sorting through the Duffer's Bible.

B-Ray
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Great Observation!

mjstrong said:
Looking through a lot of PGA Tour pro swing sequences, it seems that a lot of them are slightly above the TSP. Only slightly mind you, but it seems that a lot of them are...
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Think about it:

If you are ON the Turned Shoulder Plane at the top, you can use the right shoulder for support, power and direction early in the downswing.

If you are ABOVE the Turned Shoulder Plane at the top, you can just shift downward any number of acceptable ways and use the right shoulder for support, power and direction early in the downswing.

But, uf you are BELOW the Turned Shoulder Plane at the top, you HAVE TO COME OVER IT SLIGHTLY TO use the right shoulder for support, power and direction early in the downswing.

And, boys and girls, that is why I dislike the Hardy backswing and the Kool-Aid one as well. They will either change their prefernces upward—where all the best pros clearly are and have been over history—or they will "die on the vine."
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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Brian Manzella said:
Think about it:

If you are ON the Turned Shoulder Plane at the top, you can use the right shoulder for support, power and direction early in the downswing.

If you are ABOVE the Turned Shoulder Plane at the top, you can just shift downward any number of acceptable ways and use the right shoulder for support, power and direction early in the downswing.

But, uf you are BELOW the Turned Shoulder Plane at the top, you HAVE TO COME OVER IT SLIGHTLY TO use the right shoulder for support, power and direction early in the downswing.

And, boys and girls, that is why I dislike the Hardy backswing and the Kool-Aid one as well. They will either change their prefernces upward—where all the best pros clearly are and have been over history—or they will "die on the vine."
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Yes, the Hardy swing obviously requires some sort of over the top move in order to get back into a good, consistent hitting position. Now Brian, forgive any ignorance I may have, but if you are not going to get to the TSP at any time, and therefore use the right shoulder for support, power, and direction, would it not be recommended to aim left and block the ball towards the target? This would not require an over the top move of any kind. Are there any people who would be able to play great golf with a swing like this?

I ask out of self interest since I have played this last season from below the TSP (see below). Admittedly didn't hit the irons great, but hit the driver in play all the time, and made a bunch of putts to cash cheques. But am wondering if this should be the priority for a player looking to go to the next level of ballstriking, so to speak. Any thoughts out there appreciated.

 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Aim left and Block it?

Heck,

You can play fine from this Hardy-ish position WITHOUT coming over the top.

All you have to do is downshift to the elbow plane and hit it just fine aiming where you are looking. Or, just go back down the "armpit" plane and the ball won't know.

It just has its limitations.

There are—like Mike Finney always points out—infinite numbers of planes. The "Right Armpit Plane" will do for some.

But Homer knew that the Turned Shoulder Plane was ideal at the top, and history tell us he was correct.

But, whew, boy, on my lesson tee, I fix 'em to either at the TSP or like David Toms, slightly above, and it works like a charm.

[note: EVERY SINGLE THING I HAVE A STRONG OPINION AGAINST, is something I taught and tried myself at length. Single-plane? I was a distributer for a product that MADE YOU DO IT, mine was as "single" as you could get. This Hardy/Kool-Aid plane? I taught this very position from 1984-1986 for about 2000 lessons. The Turned Shoulder Plane works better.]
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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Brian Manzella said:
Heck,
But, whew, boy, on my lesson tee, I fix 'em to either at the TSP or like David Toms, slightly above, and it works like a charm.

[note: EVERY SINGLE THING I HAVE A STRONG OPINION AGAINST, is something I taught and tried myself at length. Single-plane? I was a distributer for a product that MADE YOU DO IT, mine was as "single" as you could get. This Hardy/Kool-Aid plane? I taught this very position from 1984-1986 for about 2000 lessons. The Turned Shoulder Plane works better.]
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So noted. I'm assuming "armpit plane;" draw a line from the ball to the right armpit at the top of the swing? Thanks Brian. For the record, I never tried to get into a "Hardy" position; I actually spent most of the season trying to explain to one of my members why I really didn't like some of the one-plane stuff in his book.
 
tbarbertab

tbarbertab

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OK Brian, you've convienced me - TSP is the ticket. Now let's don't forget this the next time I come see you in Ky. In the meantime, I will continue to try to get it higher on my own. Maybe it will be better by Spring :)

ps : seems like the higher I get my hands the more I pull the ball.
 
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Bigwill

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Brian Manzella said:
That's right.

If you are BELOW the TSP and you "come over it" a tad, you might hit it straight.

If you are ON the TSP and you "come over it" a tad, you'll probably pull it.
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So, in such a case, the person would then need more axis tilt in order to straighten the ballflight again?
 
tbarbertab

tbarbertab

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Brian Manzella said:
That's right.

If you are BELOW the TSP and you "come over it" a tad, you might hit it straight.

If you are ON the TSP and you "come over it" a tad, you'll probably pull it.
Click to expand...

Brian,

What if I'm BELOW the TSP but still pulling it? Coming over it "more than a tad". I think this describes the current state of my swing...I've hit some whopper pulls lately :( Need more axis tilt?
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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tbarbertab said:
Brian,

What if I'm BELOW the TSP but still pulling it? Coming over it "more than a tad". I think this describes the current state of my swing...I've hit some whopper pulls lately :( Need more axis tilt?
Click to expand...

First, I'd make sure that they are in fact pulls, and you're not just lining up left (or right if you're a lefty). If you do spend a lot of time under the TSP, like me, you may have gotten used to playing pushes.
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
tbarbertab said:
Brian,

What if I'm BELOW the TSP but still pulling it? Coming over it "more than a tad". I think this describes the current state of my swing...I've hit some whopper pulls lately :( Need more axis tilt?
Click to expand...

Not Brian but here's what i was doing and anyone who saw my old swing at Orlando last winter can tell you this is how it went in the video room:

setup - "eeeww looks like a tour player"
backswing - "eeeww looks like a tour player"
top of backswing - "hmm...little reverse pivot"
downswing - "ewww looks like a tour player"
between hip high and actual hip high - "uh oh, he's coming over it"
hip high - "yuck right shoulder too high, no tilt"
impact - "not bad, no flip but no power either"
through the ball and finish - "eww looks like a tour player"

--------

Now why did i post this? Do be arrogant? NO! It's to help people understand that you can be PERFECTLY ON PLANE AS I WAS and still hit the ball with "ok power" and direction with the above comments with the occasional pull shot i had (hmm sounds familiar maybe)

What was i doing? Losing my axis tilt THROUGH the ball. You see, the right shoulder would START downplane but it wouldn't STAY ONPLANE. However i managed to get the clubhead/shaft to be on plane so the ball still went where i wanted (like brian says ball has no idea) but pulls were a problem and power was fading quick.

Moral of the story? You need to stay in your tilt LONGER so that you can keep your right shoulder going downplane further. A good drill is to hit wedge shots without taking your eyes off the ball and only going to the follow through. If you can stay in your tilt and hit the ball straight (have someone watch) slowly move to a normal swing and let yourself "come out of the tilt" but after the ball's gone.

I PROMISE that the ball will go higher/straighter/further.
 
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Ringer

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Out of curiosity, do you think this lower location of the left arm might help at all with the 4th Accumulator?
 
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