Adjustable weights

[wulsy]

Can someone enlighten me as to how more weight in the toe/heel actually works to promote draw/fade spin?

 

[JonWil]

Wulsy, I think the heavier toe woudl tend to close the face to the path promoting draw and a heavier heel would tend to open the face to the path promoting fade. Or, just the opposite.

 

[Virtuoso]

Can someone enlighten me as to how more weight in the toe/heel actually works to promote draw/fade spin?

It shifts the clubhead's cg toward where ever you move the weight. If you move the weight toward the heel, a center strike becomes a toe strike and you hit a toe draw due to gear effect (or less fade depending on face angle, etc.).

 

[jenhaoyen]

Wulsy, I think the heavier toe woudl tend to close the face to the path promoting draw and a heavier heel would tend to open the face to the path promoting fade. Or, just the opposite.

i thought it was the opposite...

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

It shifts the clubhead's cg toward where ever you move the weight. If you move the weight toward the heel, a center strike becomes a toe strike and you hit a toe draw due to gear effect (or less fade depending on face angle, etc.).

THIS.

 

[wulsy]

It shifts the clubhead's cg toward where ever you move the weight. If you move the weight toward the heel, a center strike becomes a toe strike and you hit a toe draw due to gear effect (or less fade depending on face angle, etc.).

Thanks Virto, makes perfect sense. But is there anything in this "toe slowing down because it's heavier thus producing a face by adding weight to the toe" theory?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Thanks Virto, makes perfect sense. But is there anything in this "toe slowing down because it's heavier thus producing a face by adding weight to the toe" theory?

Honestly, i read this 3 times...i don't understand the theory; seriously. What virtuoso wrote is physically accurate; here's a breakdown:

Basic Examples, assuming a lot of things

center COG with center hit = straight shot
center COG with toe hit = draw shot
center COG with heel hit = fade shot

heel COG with center hit = an effective toe shot due to the COG being more towards the heel and you end up drawing the ball
toe COG with center hit = an effective heel shot due to the COG being more towards the toe and you end up fading the ball

There are more examples but this is pretty much the gist

 

[Virtuoso]

Thanks Virto, makes perfect sense. But is there anything in this "toe slowing down because it's heavier thus producing a face by adding weight to the toe" theory?

Well, currently, if you displace 15 or so grams to the toe side of the club, you are moving the head cg approx 4-5 millimeters. That is about as much as you can go and I don't think anyone has seen a measurable change in closure rate pre-impact based on that.

Now if we go further: you are applying a torque to the grip of the club. Does that torque have an instantaneous effect on the longitudinal cg of the entire club? If it did, then it shouldn't really matter that the lcg is in a slightly different location because of the head cg shift.

But we don't have an instantaneous effect right? The torque is translated through the shaft. If the "toe weighted" head has a cg that is now farther from the shaft axis, how does that effect closure rate.....and if it does, is it substantial enough to effect impact alignments in a meaningful way? And, if so, should you change technique, or should you change shaft properties (say, change the torque).

Well, how do we find out? Oh, an iron byron can remove the noise that would get in the way of test results (noise is a term used by engineers to describe incompetence by human golfers trying to produce the same swing repeatedly). But a robot doesn't apply torques to the grip the same way human beings do. So I guess we are going to have to wait for androids.

But, thus far, there are no red flags that would suggest that cg shift has an effect on closure rate or delivered face angle. We could add 100 grams of weight to the toe for fun, but then the club is so far out of spec that its mostly academic.

 

[wulsy]

Honestly, i read this 3 times...i don't understand the theory; seriously. What virtuoso wrote is physically accurate; here's a breakdown:

Basic Examples, assuming a lot of things

center COG with center hit = straight shot
center COG with toe hit = draw shot
center COG with heel hit = fade shot

heel COG with center hit = an effective toe shot due to the COG being more towards the heel and you end up drawing the ball
toe COG with center hit = an effective heel shot due to the COG being more towards the toe and you end up fading the ball

There are more examples but this is pretty much the gist

Sorry Jim, maybe my typo caused confusion: I wrote "face" instead of "fade". But thanks for your answer anyway.

 

[wulsy]

Thanks again Virtu. It would be fair to assume then that it is PURELY the CoG and GE changes which cause the change in ball flight?

Would that mean then that lead tape on a blade (toe or heel) could not effect ball flight to any significant degree?

 

[jenhaoyen]

Taylormade R11S is adjustable. But out of all the combination, there are probably only 3-4 combination that will be optimize for the shaft and the driver. If you go to a fitting center, they will show you that when you adjust the weight/face angle/lies, it totally changes the whip of the club.

 

[jenhaoyen]

I went to a seminar lately, they were talking about how only Ping has the degrees and angles right, where as Taylormade has the face angle a bit too close. I hit my driver so much better now after switching to the Ping i20 from R11. I bought 8 shafts with R11, and I could never hit the ball the way I want it.

 

[Keefer]

Ping's K15 line of drivers and woods have more weight in the heel (not adjustable). The driver has 10% or 20 grams of the total weight in the heel area (head weighs ~ 202 grams). The marketing is called Straight Flight Technology (SFT). I have the K15 woods and find the sweet spot is more towards the heel. I can't confirm this but have read somewhere that the woods are .5* open. This would make sense since they're not marketed as draw bias.

 

[Virtuoso]

Thanks again Virtu. It would be fair to assume then that it is PURELY the CoG and GE changes which cause the change in ball flight?

Would that mean then that lead tape on a blade (toe or heel) could not effect ball flight to any significant degree?

You are correct Sir Wulsy.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I am a MASSIVE fan of the adjustable titleist 910 series; reasoning? Because you can adjust face/loft/lie INDEPENDENTLY. Now the other manufacturers might have caught up to this method but i know when the 910 came out titleist was the only one that didn't mess with the face when trying to adjust loft which is a huge fitting thing.

 

[hp12c]

I went to a seminar lately, they were talking about how only Ping has the degrees and angles right, where as Taylormade has the face angle a bit too close. I hit my driver so much better now after switching to the Ping i20 from R11. I bought 8 shafts with R11, and I could never hit the ball the way I want it.

Hey J what u do with those 8 shafts?

 

[Shot Limit]

Hey J what u do with those 8 shafts?

Tour model ski poles.

 

[jenhaoyen]

Hey J what u do with those 8 shafts?

I sold all of them, and got a Ping I20.

 

[wulsy]

You are correct Sir Wulsy.

Thank you, o virtuous one.

 

[dschultz6072]

I am a MASSIVE fan of the adjustable titleist 909 series; reasoning? Because you can adjust face/loft/lie INDEPENDENTLY. Now the other manufacturers might have caught up to this method but i know when the 909 came out titleist was the only one that didn't mess with the face when trying to adjust loft which is a huge fitting thing.

You mean 910?