After a range session with tour striker...

[noobie]

Hey guys,

Wanted to solicit a few thoughts about my range session. I just got a Tour Striker Pro 7I and headed out to the driving range. After starting out with some worm burners, I realized I was hitting too low on the club face and decided to make an aggressive slide (at least it felt like to me) of my left hip (I've been told by my one of my friends who is a golf pro that my lower body is too quiet in my swing). Shortly after, I started making solid contact with the ball (~5 yard draw that started right of my target line). When I employed the same technique to my irons, I continued making great contact. SO I want to make sure now that I fully understand why I had a great range session (by the end I was hitting ~5 yard draws with my 4I):

1) Does the hip slide move the low point of my swing forward (by moving my left shoulder forward) toward my target? Is this the best way to control the low point?

2) As I changed my ball placement forward/backward, I realized that I could dial in a certain amount of hip slide as needed. For wedges (ball back), I didn't need much slide. For longer irons (ball forward), more hip slide. NOW, can one have too much hip slide? Or is that RELATIVE to your ball placement? If your ball placement is 3 yards in front of your left foot then is the correct amount of hip slide ~3 yards? How can you know if you have too much hip slide?

3) With my hip slide, I felt I was moving my low point forward and making contact higher on my club face. This is great for irons where I want to hit down on the ball. But what about driver and/or 3W? With these clubs I want to hit up and have AoA near zero for 3W. Does that mean, no hip slide is needed? Or is the hip slide only important for these clubs because it promotes axis tilt?

Thanks,

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You are learning various axis tilts for various irons. generally, the longer the club the more axis tilt you need to hit it well which is why you feel more slide with the long irons and less with the short irons.

sidenote

also a reason why everyone tends to be "ok" hitting short irons; doesn't require much tilt.

 

[jenhaoyen]

You are learning various axis tilts for various irons. generally, the longer the club the more axis tilt you need to hit it well which is why you feel more slide with the long irons and less with the short irons.

sidenote

also a reason why everyone tends to be "ok" hitting short irons; doesn't require much tilt.

what if you hit long irons, woods better than irons? too much tilt?

 

[Lifter]

what if you hit long irons, woods better than irons? too much tilt?

I would say no, hips are not too far forward. This is probably an indication that you have underplane issues. The ideal swing plane for a driver / 3-wood is much flatter than the ideal plane for a 9-iron.

Underplane means your swing path is too much in-to-out. To make your swing path more in-to-in, try to hit pull-cuts.

 

[dbl]

Re Post 4, I have my doubts the diagnosis is correct for a couple of reasons. For example, an underplaner cant hit drivers off the deck so it makes no sense that FW and long irons would be his best clubs. Lifter, you may be connoting in/out with underplane, that is a gross over-simplification; in any case I wouldn't be able to say he's too in out just on this alone.

OP, I can't directly answer your question, but sounds like you are on the right track. Keep in mind, as far as I know, for a driver, one can have hip slide and still hit up on the ball. I've seen Brian demonstrate like a baseball hitter hitting a low fastball with the bat's plane seeming like it is an up strike, not level (or down). One thing that might help, in my lesson with Brian he wanted a much wider driver stance than I was accustomed too. So, not knowing your addrees position, but you might try taking your right foot and moving it a full width to the right. Do your same swing things but with a bit of thought of hitting up; you should have more room and angles to do this.

 

[Lifter]

Re Post 4, I have my doubts the diagnosis is correct for a couple of reasons. For example, an underplaner cant hit drivers off the deck so it makes no sense that FW and long irons would be his best clubs. Lifter, you may be connoting in/out with underplane, that is a gross over-simplification; in any case I wouldn't be able to say he's too in out just on this alone.

A couple points: first, jenhaoyen didn't provide a whole lot of info, so of course I'm guessing to a certain extent and can't attempt any kind of in-depth analysis. Second, I don't see how "driver off the deck" refutes my point. I'm sure that hitting driver off the deck requires a much flatter swing plane than a 9-iron (albeit steeper than driver off a tee). Third, dbl says that I'm oversimplifying by equating underplane with in-to-out path. If so, then what is the difference? I'd love to know what it is because I sure don't grasp it. Seem like the same thing to me.

 

[dbl]

Boy there has been a lot written on under plane. Kevin has had this to say:

Its a very vague concept. If you are TRULY under the plane you would always hit the ground first and that isnt the case with alot of underplaners because of the compensations they make like flipping and straightening up.

To make it easy on myself, I describe underplane as anytime (back or down) that the clubhead or sweetspot gets to the left of a straight line from the hands to the ball. The weight is always trying to line up with the hands so seeing as how you can play well from so many hands paths thats a good checkpoint for me.
Note: ** Right handed golfer from down the line view

also this

My feeling, of course, is hands under the plane - clubHEAD over the plane. Left arm angles way in so i could feel that i could stick the butt end in my right thigh if i wanted too. Hand path is crucial.

So I can't comment a lot more about definitions, it is a complex subject; and there are more examples of situations out there find one can find. But to me the above selections are more reflective of underplane than just in/out. I'm pretty sure a person could be in/out and over the plane, anyways.

 

[jenhaoyen]

With all the new release thread, should I still get a Tour Striker?

Since it makes you hit down more, would this defeat the purpose of what we discussed in the "release" thread?

 

[Noreaster]

Yes!

 

[Lifter]

it is a complex subject; and there are more examples of situations out there find one can find. But to me the above selections are more reflective of underplane than just in/out. I'm pretty sure a person could be in/out and over the plane, anyways.

It would be nice if someone with strong knowledge of D-Plane / Trackman could chime in on this. Part of the issue here is that "in-to-out" is not clearly defined. My idea of in-to-out is the following: if someone hit, say, a 6-iron and the divot pointed directly at the target, then I say the swing was in-to-out. The divot is taken after impact, after all, which indicates that the ball was actually struck with a path pointing to the right.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hit down less?

Yes.

Forward lean less?

Not for better players.

 

[birly-shirly]

I don't see why the release thread should change anything for you. As far as I understand it, the release thread is about finding impact alignments with "enough" fwd lean, and "enough" downward angle of attack - without overdoing it. And part of the problem being addressed by the thread is that some people had fallen into a faulty conception of how to go about getting those impact conditions.

I don't have one - but it seems to me that a tour striker would give good feedback on your impact whilst you experiment with the ideas in the release thread of a wider downswing, upwards handpath, lining up the club or whatever.

Then again, if you're already trying to nail an aiming point and are too steep into the ball - maybe you don't need a tour striker at all. Or maybe you do, because you're going to try and back off some of the steepness and you need some feedback on when you've gone too far.

The point is, the tour striker, or a compression board, or a line on the ground gives you feedback on what's happening at impact. The release thread is about how to manipulate your impact.

 

[jenhaoyen]

Yes!

yes as, get it? or it defeat the purpose of proper release?

 

[Lifter]

Then again, if you're already trying to nail an aiming point and are too steep into the ball - maybe you don't need a tour striker at all. Or maybe you do, because you're going to try and back off some of the steepness and you need some feedback on when you've gone too far.

This is a very good point. I think the Tour Striker is an excellent tool for someone who is so far below the plane that he has trouble compressing the ball.

 

[jenhaoyen]

but woulnd't getting 73 degree wedge be the same?

If you don't
hit down correctly you can't hit the ball haha

 

[mgranato]

Lifter,
If the divot is pointing straight at the target, and the club is still moving down and out at impact - meaning the club is moving down and out straight at the target, which way do you reckon the plane is going?

 

[cmartingolf]

Want to test your alignment? Get the TSP off the ground w/out taking a divot at all. Max "lean" with minimal "down."

 

[dbl]

Lifter, you asked about more definitions, even just on in out. You might be talking about the HSP of trackman, or maybe something else. I kind of assume you mean a rightward path prior to taking account the onplane/downplane strike.

As to underplane and divots, consider these two quotes

(Symptoms)
Just be honest with yourself and dont ignore the symptoms. No divot, curved divots, misses short right and long left, refusal to go away from a strong right hand grip, ball position to far back, cant pitch the ball, would rather have a "perched lie", etc etc....

Underplane shows up worse with the irons because you need to have a higher VSP to hit solid iron shots and you need to be swinging further left. With the driver you can swing further right and hit good shots as well as have a lower VSP, so the same numbers that send an iron shot into the trees right would produce a little push cut with the driver, however underplane can get worse and worse to where the only drives you can hit a big hooks and what I like to call "snap fades" lol I would suggest hitting some drivers off the deck, it will help your driver and your long irons, hitting a 9 degree driver off the deck, you better not get underplane and swing right or you won't get it off the ground.

also re underplane, consider Jared's comments:

Underplane is caused by taking the hands toward the target and the club reverse tumbling under.

So, I stand by what I said earlier, underplane is too complex to equate to just in/out.

 

[Lifter]

Lifter,
If the divot is pointing straight at the target, and the club is still moving down and out at impact - meaning the club is moving down and out straight at the target, which way do you reckon the plane is going?

If the club is still moving down and out right after impact, then I reckon that the plane is pointing to the right of the target. I'm not an expert, though, so I wouldn't bet my life on it.

 

[mgranato]

What I used to think too, but if that 6 iron you talked about had a path straight at the target with a negative AA (evidenced by the described divot), the plane would be to the left or out-to-in relative to the target line. The true definition of "swinging left".