Axis tilt, Weight Shift, Downswing pivot

[spktho]

I am having trouble getting even close to these positions. It looks simple, but is very difficult for me. Can someone explain how to get into or how it feels getting to these positions from the top of the backswing. I realize Brian and the other two have much more practice than I, but they must have learned it somehow. Is this just something that needs to be done in static positions and work from smaller to larger swings?

I tend to have a lot of carry, so the closest I can get so far is by feeling like I'm hanging back and trying to put my right shoulder in my right hip pocket. I have also tried to move the head into those positions with limited success. The closest I can get is with a slight right shoulder down tilt, square shoulders and a very slight right elbow bend.

Any ideas are appreciated. Since this is your swing Brian, I'm sure you have the most insight.

Steve

 

[birdie_man]

What exactly do you do that's different from Brian?

If you need to flip it you probably will have less tilt. (comes directly to mind whether it's relevant or not)

Brian, as he has stated many times, has more flexibility than the average golfer since his shoulder surgery.

 

[spktho]

Not so much a flip, but an early release for sure. I can get there easily just posing, but not with a swing. The other question is why do I want to get into a position close to those? My wife says its a mid-life crisis. I'm just tired of scoring in the 80's for the past 15 years and need to change how I was swinging the club.

This is a vid from today after a couple of weeks of changes. This was a decent drive, high 10 yd. draw, started on line and drew.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxNlGQS3Cvo[/media]

 

[Kevin Shields]

Spktho, with a clubface that open, you dont want any of that tilt. Backswing sequence looks pretty athletic but the clubface is way to open for you to work "under it" like the pics of Brian.

 

[spktho]

Spktho, with a clubface that open, you dont want any of that tilt. Backswing sequence looks pretty athletic but the clubface is way to open for you to work "under it" like the pics of Brian.

Thanks, I will fix that then--(without the right shoulder/arm helping, right?)

Will that help make the downswing look pretty athletic?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Thanks, I will fix that then--(without the right shoulder/arm helping, right?)

Will that help make the downswing look pretty athletic?

Haha! Yeah, baby.

 

[greenfree]

Right shoulder is higher at impact than at setup. that's why you have to release early/ straighten your trailing arm too soon, you have raised up and your trying to reach the ball. Your not into the ground in transition. More of a spin type move that your doing.

Your not swinging into your legs,your swinging over your legs.

 

[Kevin Shields]

IMO right shoulder is high because he's releasing early and using it to square the club.

 

[spktho]

IMO right shoulder is high because he's releasing early and using it to square the club.

You are absolutely correct, Kevin!

You said this in my other post too, but dummy me, I thought I could work on the pivot and axis tilt first, then worry about club face. I worked some more today and can get closer to a real axis tilt--only if what feels like to me closing the hell out of club face in the back swing and downswing with only the left wrist twistaway. Then kind of hold on after impact to keep it from hooking off the range(and I mean off the range--I did hit a couple off the range). As you guys and Brian say, club face control is more important--at least in my case.

Right shoulder is higher at impact than at setup. that's why you have to release early/ straighten your trailing arm too soon, you have raised up and your trying to reach the ball. Your not into the ground in transition. More of a spin type move that your doing.

Your not swinging into your legs,your swinging over your legs.

I also felt I had to push or twist the right leg/foot kind of clockwise to start the downswing. Which is opposite of turning counterclockwise toward the ball, which is what I have been doing. This felt somewhat more of into the legs. Does that sound right?

I feel like what to me is a Moe Norman type pivot although I really don't look like his swing.

 

[greenfree]

You are absolutely correct, Kevin!

You said this in my other post too, but dummy me, I thought I could work on the pivot and axis tilt first, then worry about club face. I worked some more today and can get closer to a real axis tilt--only if what feels like to me closing the hell out of club face in the back swing and downswing with only the left wrist twistaway. Then kind of hold on after impact to keep it from hooking off the range(and I mean off the range--I did hit a couple off the range). As you guys and Brian say, club face control is more important--at least in my case.




I also felt I had to push or twist the right leg/foot kind of clockwise to start the downswing. Which is opposite of turning counterclockwise toward the ball, which is what I have been doing. This felt somewhat more of into the legs. Does that sound right?

I feel like what to me is a Moe Norman type pivot although I really don't look like his swing.

It's kind of funny you mentioned Moe Norman, only because he used to say that he swung into his legs. You don't have to look like Moe or anyone else. Fix the face and see what you get.

If you fix the face you might have to make a different downswing move. Fixing the face doesn't automatically change your downswing move. You could end up with a different face with the same d.s. move and you might not like the results.

 

[DCgolf]

with the release that early, he has to slide in front of it and stay tall to avois hitting fat. Kevin we were just talking about that...

 

[spktho]

with the release that early, he has to slide in front of it and stay tall to avoid hitting fat. Kevin we were just talking about that...

Great website! I worked on it some more with the new footwork, club face facing the movie screen, clearing/turning the hips, keeping upper body back, and down with the right shoulder. Early release is pretty much gone. Axis tilt is more. Right elbow stays bent at impact. I think it's more athletic, Kevin

The battery died on my camera and trick or treating time. I'll try to get vid up tomorrow.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Great! I want some video! Bad weather is forcing me here to get my fix of studying golf swings.

 

[Kevin Shields]

It's kind of funny you mentioned Moe Norman, only because he used to say that he swung into his legs. You don't have to look like Moe or anyone else. Fix the face and see what you get.

If you fix the face you might have to make a different downswing move. Fixing the face doesn't automatically change your downswing move. You could end up with a different face with the same d.s. move and you might not like the results.

Check out [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtbWcobBp3k&feature=fvsr[/media]

There's no doubt if he fixes the face he'll have to make different downswing moves. Thats the whole point.

 

[greenfree]

There's no doubt if he fixes the face he'll have to make different downswing moves. Thats the whole point.

Well i guess i made a good point then, thanks. Maybe you can tell him the new moves he needs to do, as that was his original question, how to achieve the look of Brian's impact.

 

[spktho]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0lidllh-ra0&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0lidllh-ra0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

To change a movement an inch feels like a mile. Kevin's right, the club face is the key to open up where I want to go. Still needs work, but improving. Restricting the follow through to help stop the lateral upper body movement.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Good work. You may also want to throw in a slight strengthening of your left hand as well.

 

[spktho]

After about 3 more hours....

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DK6X2OYG0y4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DK6X2OYG0y4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Drilling the 5 iron keeping right elbow close to body and pivoting.




<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmaLu-gn3nU&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmaLu-gn3nU&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

5 iron swing following drilling.



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9uVKbLFcrxI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9uVKbLFcrxI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Driver drilling the same as the 5 iron. Harder to do, though.



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/D0mUZBor3jM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/D0mUZBor3jM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Driver swing following drills. Hit it high on the clubface, but the precision will come. As you can see some more work to do to relax the right shoulder.




I started off by doing drills only, then after a while went to 5 drill swings then 1 full swing. I did this for the 5 iron, then did the same thing with the driver.

This downswing pivot felt like the opposite of everything that I was doing and different from when you hear "transfer your weight to the left side". I was transferring the weight before, but not using the weight transfer much for the old swing.

This new pivot to me feels as if the right foot pushes toward the right(direction), the upper body hangs back and tilts(lateral bend to the right), and the left foot pushes back to the left as the hips are turning left. I hope I'm pivoting more correct because it feels real solid and like I'm actually using the ground to power the pivot. The blisters on my feet say so too.

You may also want to throw in a slight strengthening of your left hand as well.

I've been trying to max out the twistaway with a neutral grip, really finishing the drills with the clubface facing the movie screen. I'll try a slightly stronger grip when I get to the range again so I can adjust by seeing the ballflight.

I know it is irritating to some(so what), but I have to say thank you to Brian, Kevin, all the Manzella Academy Instructors, and all the other quality instructors here for running a website, getting the truth about the golf swing, and having a teaching philosophy that allows people to transform their swing into any pattern that makes them better. (I don't know if I will be any better yet, but this swing sure feels more repeatable and I must say, looks more athletic, right Kevin?)


Anything else for me to work on?

 

[spktho]

For the past 3-4 weeks I have been working on the swing change and continuing hitting about 4 inches fat with every iron. I finally got COFF and started working on Ben and Brian's pitch, chip, and punches. But would still hit fat irons on the full swing.

Then a minor break through thanks to my 4 year old and COFF. My son was hitting balls with his little driver and in the past I have had him slow down his back swing because he would tend to get off balance. When he slows down, he can't hit the ball at all. So, today he was hitting balls with me and I watched as he would make a forceful take away and come back to make contact with the ball. I then remembered that Brian said this in COFF to help with float loading.

Anyway, I started doing the forceful takeaway and a forceful change of directions and I really started feeling the weight shift and pivot just "happen" to make the club do what I wanted. Then as long as I held the twistaway and kept the hands going forward along with right shoulder down and axis tilt, I still hit it fat, although less fat.

Then I remembered another COFF explanation of the left shoulder joint controlling the low point. I then started doing all the above, which has become pretty natural, and added raising the left shoulder or "throwing the drunk off" as part of the down swing. But, really as part of lowering the right shoulder.

The result was about 30-35 5 irons all hit within 10 yards left or right of the target about 200-210yds--dead straight all with the same medium high trajectory. This was the end of my 2nd bucket and I was afraid to change clubs in fear of losing this swing feeling, so I just kept hitting the 5 iron.

So how do you keep a good swing going when changing clubs? Especially going to the driver?

 

[greenfree]

For the past 3-4 weeks I have been working on the swing change and continuing hitting about 4 inches fat with every iron. I finally got COFF and started working on Ben and Brian's pitch, chip, and punches. But would still hit fat irons on the full swing.

Then a minor break through thanks to my 4 year old and COFF. My son was hitting balls with his little driver and in the past I have had him slow down his back swing because he would tend to get off balance. When he slows down, he can't hit the ball at all. So, today he was hitting balls with me and I watched as he would make a forceful take away and come back to make contact with the ball. I then remembered that Brian said this in COFF to help with float loading.

Anyway, I started doing the forceful takeaway and a forceful change of directions and I really started feeling the weight shift and pivot just "happen" to make the club do what I wanted. Then as long as I held the twistaway and kept the hands going forward along with right shoulder down and axis tilt, I still hit it fat, although less fat.

Then I remembered another COFF explanation of the left shoulder joint controlling the low point. I then started doing all the above, which has become pretty natural, and added raising the left shoulder or "throwing the drunk off" as part of the down swing. But, really as part of lowering the right shoulder.

The result was about 30-35 5 irons all hit within 10 yards left or right of the target about 200-210yds--dead straight all with the same medium high trajectory. This was the end of my 2nd bucket and I was afraid to change clubs in fear of losing this swing feeling, so I just kept hitting the 5 iron.

So how do you keep a good swing going when changing clubs? Especially going to the driver?

No fear or doubting yourself. If it's a good swing and you doubt it because your going to change clubs,your letting fear of failure rule your swing. You wouldn't let fear run your life would you, overcome it, instead of fearing the Driver tell yourself all the clubs are the same and you can't wait to use any of them.

If your swing is truly good you don't want that little voice that doesn't know how to swing a club second guess the one that's actually doing the swinging. If you give your subconscious that picture of doubt/ failure it's going to run with it. Positive reinforcement, not negative.