Ben Doyle and swing methods

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This came popped into my head the other day and I'd like to share my thoughts with you guys.

One swing pattern isn't for everybody, no matter how optimal or biomechanically correct it is. Hope we’re on the same page for that by now.

However, for those one swing pattern teachers out there, it’s interesting to see how different elements balance out.

For example, Ben Doyle is famous for teaching handle dragging and using the pivot from the top- diametrically opposed to the “new release” discussed recently. However, this element is balanced with the concept of “over-acceleration” which makes it harder to tug or jackknife the club in transition.

With the “new release” you are allowed to over-accelerate more worrying about tugging. My point is- great method swings often have elements that balance each other out, and a player can focus on a certain aspect that fits them when they’re swinging badly.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
One swing pattern isn't for everybody, no matter how optimal or biomechanically correct it is. Hope we’re on the same page for that by now.

I do not care at all about Doyle's (or somebody else's microscale patterns for the matter) but this sentence is not correct. There are optimal macroscale patterns for a human depending on a goal. Body build or genetics are microscale issues, but the mechanics remain the same assuming no physical deformity (as Hogan wisely said).

Repeating the sentence: there are million equally good patterns or one swing pattern is not for everyone without explaining it further is simply wrong.

Cheers
 
Here's a fact. Ben Doyle can flat out play golf. The work done by Brian, Michael and others has shown that his method is not optimal. Then how does he do it? He makes the right compensation. I think that's Leo's point.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
One swing pattern isn't for everybody, no matter how optimal or biomechanically correct it is. Hope we’re on the same page for that by now.

There are optimal macroscale patterns for a human depending on a goal.

As as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow morning, someone will play better with a pattern that is VERY MUCH non-optimum.

However, for those one swing pattern teachers out there, it’s interesting to see how different elements balance out.

Truer words were never spoken about methods.

He is my totally correct statement on methods:

Take a pattern that worked on the PGA Tour, ball striking wise for a long time—for example, New Orleanian Kelly Gibson. He never won on tour, but was a consistent money winner for a long time, dispute average putting and short game—and if you have the video, 3D data, and TrackMan numbers for it, and find another golfer with a similar enough build to REPLICATE IT, it will produce the EXACT SAME SHOTS that Kelley did.

Period.

For example, Ben Doyle is famous for teaching handle dragging and using the pivot from the top- diametrically opposed to the “new release” discussed recently. However, this element is balanced with the concept of “over-acceleration” which makes it harder to tug or jackknife the club in transition.

Ben NEVER wanted you to move your hands with your hands, always with the pivot.

Ben NEVER WANTED forward lean at impact.

Ben wanted you to use the ground to get your left shoulder as far away from the ball as possible at impact, "shooting the tube," which sounds to me like going normal.

If you do those three things YOU CAN NOT HANDLE-DRAG.

However, this element is balanced with the concept of “over-acceleration” which makes it harder to tug or jackknife the club in transition.

With the “new release” you are allowed to over-accelerate more worrying about tugging.

I think if Ben saw someone moving the arm/shoulder area early, without starting to pivot, he'd like it.


My point is- great method swings often have elements that balance each other out, and a player can focus on a certain aspect that fits them when they’re swinging badly.

No doubt about it.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
For those who don't know Ben Doyle or are new to this site, here is something I wrote for another site yesterday:

SInce I am not only "one of Ben's Boys," but probably the one who has spent the most time with him, I guess I better chime in on this thread.

Also, it should be noted here on Brian Manzella.com, how much time Mike Finney, Tom Bartlett, Chris Hamburger, Steve Kahtib, and Mike Jacobs have spent with Ben as well.


What does Ben teach?

Well, if you say "TGM" you are slightly misinformed. Although Ben would disagree with that.

The first golf pro Homer Kelley took the book to was Bentley J. Doyle, who was then the very successful Head Pro at Broadmoor Golf Club in Seattle. He became the 1st Authorized Instructor of The Golfing Machine. He was a really good player and fell in love with the Monterey California area when was was down playing in the Crosby.

He moved his whole family down to the area with only a place to teach and zero clients. He became so popular that he soon upgraded to a better facility and when Bobby Clampett took over amateur golf, Ben was booked three months ahead.

When I went to see him for the first time in June of 1987, he taught a pattern that was not "in the book." It was in the 3rd addition, but by 1987 the book was on the 6th edition. Ben was quite unhappy about that. Just as Ben probably influenced Homer to include a "maximum participation" pattern by edition 3, others probably influenced Mr. Kelley the other way by #6.

Ben never thought the book was perfect. He dislikes that axis tilt is explained as predominantly hip slide, when Ben does not like hip slide. Ben is right of course, "axis tilt" can be added by adding right side bend only.

Unlike a lot of folks who became teachers of note partially because of the book, Ben was an excellent teacher before he met Homer. Because of his ball-striking ability—which was great—and his practical teaching ability, the Ben Doyle "lesson program" was absolutely not "book literal."


This is what Ben teaches:


You are thinking about, feeling, and sensing the club's sweetspot where your right forefinger meets the grip. Your are looking at the inside back of the ball, and you power the shot from the ground up with your "pivot" with a little right arm added. This "pivot power" comes from a pressure shift, NOT a WEIGHT shift, to the right. He had us hit balls on milk crates, so any big shift was, ah, penalized—so to speak. This shift was followed by a "sit down" with your legs getting very wide—Snead like—on the downswing getting "very heavy" into the ground. From there, without hip slide, you use the ground to get your left shoulder as far away from the ball as you can, eventually having your left leg straighten when your right arm does, post impact.

He wants you to be able to "drive a tack" and then "drive a spike."

His "leading edge hits a tee that is in the ground on a slant slightly above ground drill" has humbled major champions.

This approach is continued into little short but strong chips, chip-pitches, pitches, punches, 2/3 swivel shots, and full shots.

He teaches a double-shift, pitch elbow, maximum power swing. He really doesn't think there is anyone who can't do it.


Here is what the (Stance and Alignment) "Mat" is all about simply:


When you look down at the club in an impact attitude, the club looks to have more forward lean than it does. Btw, Ben wanted basically none.

The red line is the basic arc of the swing on the ground, and there are lines that it seems like you make your shifts on. There is also a mirror image of Ben's swing you can copy with your shadow or a small mirror.

Over the years he added more and more Ben-isms, and the mat got larger.

His self-videoed "How to Build a G.O.L.F. Game" has sold thousands of copies, and is owned by (or possessed by) hundreds of teachers.


Ben and I roomed together at so many national teaching seminars, and PGA shows, that, well…I know the number, but you wouldn't believe it. Ben loved all of it. There were years we went to so many things in Florida, it seems like we lived there part of the time.

Ben is very competitive, super smart, and very curious. He owns every golf book you have ever heard of and them some. As well as audio and video instructionals so obscure, the collection is worth "X."

Everything that I eventually found to be not quite scientifically correct about "the book," Ben had pretty much found a solution to, all the while staying loyal to the book. I begged him to write a book about what HE and how HE taught, but he is too loyal to the book to do it.

He has had more influence over golf instruction than anyone. Period. The amount of teachers who have been on the top teacher lists, who have taking private FULL PRICE lesson from him, dwarfs any other teacher who ever lived.

He has not yet won the PGA National Teacher of the Year award, a travesty, in my, and many others, opinions.

He is one of kind, and without him, I'd be selling insurance somewhere.

I learned so much from him that had NOTHING to do with swing mechanics, it is immeasurable. Beyond anything else, Ben Doyle is a great man.

Ben and his absolutely wonderful wife Joanne now live in an assisted living facility in the San Francisco area, and I hope to see him when I go out to the US Open.
 
I do not care at all about Doyle's (or somebody else's microscale patterns for the matter) but this sentence is not correct. There are optimal macroscale patterns for a human depending on a goal. Body build or genetics are microscale issues, but the mechanics remain the same assuming no physical deformity (as Hogan wisely said).

Repeating the sentence: there are million equally good patterns or one swing pattern is not for everyone without explaining it further is simply wrong.

Cheers

How is macroscale different than microscale? I do not know how one perfect pattern exists given all of the anatomical and biomechanical movements that are needed to hit a golf shot. (Perfect impact does exist).
 
Brian taught me the tee drill last summer. Like no other drill, it really makes you feel incompetent. I can see why it has humbled major winners.
 
Brian -

"As as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow morning, someone will play better with a pattern that is VERY MUCH non-optimum."

I agree 100%. We are all vastly different in our anatomy and biomechaincal ability. What matters is the swing you can muster under pressure on a consistent basis to get the ball in the hole. Certain patterns might emerge as optimum, but to claim you must swing in compliance with such an optimum pattern is absurd. Such a position does not take into consideration how the body responds to stress and how ones brain can actually execute under pressure. Maybe one day they'll map the brain and figure out how different we really are from a biomechanical standpoint.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
How is macroscale different than microscale? I do not know how one perfect pattern exists given all of the anatomical and biomechanical movements that are needed to hit a golf shot. (Perfect impact does exist).

It is simple. Macroscale is just a big picture of kinetics of a human. Physics cares very well about having the optimal solution to a given goal. There are multiple ways to achieve a goal but 1 is the optimal and the rest is suboptimal. Always.
Opposite to anatomy ignorants, anatomy rules do not differ humans but joins them and helps physics to achieve goals and take inspiration from kinetics of everyday's activities. Humans should be regarded as two-legged, two-armed creatures and not as fat and short Mr.X and long and tall Mr.Y. The macroscale kinetics is the same and both these guys should understand this before microscale teachers choose the best pattern for each of them. Microscale patterns may be different but if they want to be effective they must obey optimal macroscale rules for both of them and the rest of humanity except deformities.

Cheers
 
Brian, I think I could have saved myself a lot of time if I had you around 20 years ago when I was trying to digest a couple of lessons I took from Ben. While I did enjoy my time with Ben and the resultant 'journey' I spent a fair amount of time trying to go from a flipper to a 'Ben Doyle maximum participation guy' with varying degrees of success. I will say that the time turned out to be well spent. I was more consistent swinging only partially like Ben wanted me to than I was as a flipper. With this sites help I think I'm even better and I don't even hardly play anymore. Thanks for all your help and thanks for the continuing kind words about Ben. We started off a little rough but when he found out I had twins he warmed up to me. As you well know, he's a twin. I still get a kick watching my old black and white VHS tape of my lessons. I could watch Ben in the backround hitting pitches and punches all day long.
 
For those who don't know Ben Doyle or are new to this site, here is something I wrote for another site yesterday:

SInce I am not only "one of Ben's Boys," but probably the one who has spent the most time with him, I guess I better chime in on this thread.

Also, it should be noted here on Brian Manzella.com, how much time Mike Finney, Tom Bartlett, Chris Hamburger, Steve Kahtib, and Mike Jacobs have spent with Ben as well.


What does Ben teach?

Well, if you say "TGM" you are slightly misinformed. Although Ben would disagree with that.

The first golf pro Homer Kelley took the book to was Bentley J. Doyle, who was then the very successful Head Pro at Broadmoor Golf Club in Seattle. He became the 1st Authorized Instructor of The Golfing Machine. He was a really good player and fell in love with the Monterey California area when was was down playing in the Crosby.

He moved his whole family down to the area with only a place to teach and zero clients. He became so popular that he soon upgraded to a better facility and when Bobby Clampett took over amateur golf, Ben was booked three months ahead.

When I went to see him for the first time in June of 1987, he taught a pattern that was not "in the book." It was in the 3rd addition, but by 1987 the book was on the 6th edition. Ben was quite unhappy about that. Just as Ben probably influenced Homer to include a "maximum participation" pattern by edition 3, others probably influenced Mr. Kelley the other way by #6.

Ben never thought the book was perfect. He dislikes that axis tilt is explained as predominantly hip slide, when Ben does not like hip slide. Ben is right of course, "axis tilt" can be added by adding right side bend only.

Unlike a lot of folks who became teachers of note partially because of the book, Ben was an excellent teacher before he met Homer. Because of his ball-striking ability—which was great—and his practical teaching ability, the Ben Doyle "lesson program" was absolutely not "book literal."


This is what Ben teaches:


You are thinking about, feeling, and sensing the club's sweetspot where your right forefinger meets the grip. Your are looking at the inside back of the ball, and you power the shot from the ground up with your "pivot" with a little right arm added. This "pivot power" comes from a pressure shift, NOT a WEIGHT shift, to the right. He had us hit balls on milk crates, so any big shift was, ah, penalized—so to speak. This shift was followed by a "sit down" with your legs getting very wide—Snead like—on the downswing getting "very heavy" into the ground. From there, without hip slide, you use the ground to get your left shoulder as far away from the ball as you can, eventually having your left leg straighten when your right arm does, post impact.

He wants you to be able to "drive a tack" and then "drive a spike."

His "leading edge hits a tee that is in the ground on a slant slightly above ground drill" has humbled major champions.

This approach is continued into little short but strong chips, chip-pitches, pitches, punches, 2/3 swivel shots, and full shots.

He teaches a double-shift, pitch elbow, maximum power swing. He really doesn't think there is anyone who can't do it.


Here is what the (Stance and Alignment) "Mat" is all about simply:


When you look down at the club in an impact attitude, the club looks to have more forward lean than it does. Btw, Ben wanted basically none.

The red line is the basic arc of the swing on the ground, and there are lines that it seems like you make your shifts on. There is also a mirror image of Ben's swing you can copy with your shadow or a small mirror.

Over the years he added more and more Ben-isms, and the mat got larger.

His self-videoed "How to Build a G.O.L.F. Game" has sold thousands of copies, and is owned by (or possessed by) hundreds of teachers.


Ben and I roomed together at so many national teaching seminars, and PGA shows, that, well…I know the number, but you wouldn't believe it. Ben loved all of it. There were years we went to so many things in Florida, it seems like we lived there part of the time.

Ben is very competitive, super smart, and very curious. He owns every golf book you have ever heard of and them some. As well as audio and video instructionals so obscure, the collection is worth "X."

Everything that I eventually found to be not quite scientifically correct about "the book," Ben had pretty much found a solution to, all the while staying loyal to the book. I begged him to write a book about what HE and how HE taught, but he is too loyal to the book to do it.

He has had more influence over golf instruction than anyone. Period. The amount of teachers who have been on the top teacher lists, who have taking private FULL PRICE lesson from him, dwarfs any other teacher who ever lived.

He has not yet won the PGA National Teacher of the Year award, a travesty, in my, and many others, opinions.

He is one of kind, and without him, I'd be selling insurance somewhere.

I learned so much from him that had NOTHING to do with swing mechanics, it is immeasurable. Beyond anything else, Ben Doyle is a great man.

Ben and his absolutely wonderful wife Joanne now live in an assisted living facility in the San Francisco area, and I hope to see him when I go out to the US Open.

Beautiful! You captured him perfectly! I am better off today for having spent time with him! In my 36 years of golf he is the only true shinning light. There is only one Ben Doyle.

Thank you!

Keith Behrens
 
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Thanks for that summary post Brian, it is a classic. In fact it prompted me to pull out the old VHS tape "lesson" I received from Ben in 2005 (the one where you could send Ben some swing footage and he'd respond with his inputs videoed on the same tape and send the tape back). I'd been hitting it really well on the footage I sent to him and I'd totally forgotten what his suggestions were until I reviewed it this morning. Had a fantastic range session this afternoon after incorporating one or two of his inputs...... one of which I don't think I ever really "got" until I looked at it again today.

I'm so glad I have that tape as it's my own little "personal" interaction with one of the instruction greats. All the best to Ben.
 
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