Best Approach to Improvement......

[300Drive]

I'm a 15 handicap who has identified the following "issues" with the help of a local PGA professional. My question is, what is the best "approach" to improving and how many drills should I use per issue?

1) A pull is my miss (over the top)
2) I overswing at the top (right arm bent too far, some right wrist break-down)
3) Sometimes</u> have the "chicken wing" blocking action (probably as a way of compensating for the pulls and trying to get the path to go further right than left)
4) Elvis Presley has nothing on me....overactive leg drive on the forward swing
5) Tempo

Other than that, I'd be scratch

I probabaly have identified 2-3 drills for Each of the items above....Should I focus on one issue above until it is "ok" then move to the next (say it take 3-6 months)? Should I work on 2 to 3 issues for the next 3- 6 months, alternating one practice session to each? Should I identifiy one drill for that problem and master it, or should I use multiple drills for each issue? What is a good EFFECTIVE approach?

Any reply would help....Thanks

 

[EdZ]

It is said over and over, but the best way to learn a proper swing, is to start with a chip shot - and don't move on - until you understand proper contact and 'swinging' motion - the rock on a string - downward contact, hands ahead, flat lead wrist, bent trail wrist

right hand only chips shots, keeping that wrist bent

you have to 'build' a good swing, from small swings, to full swings, from pivot to arms to hands

Work with broom, and a mop - keep the handle against your left side from hip to hip - use a mirror

If you don't get the 'small' swing down, you will never get the full swing down - and it doesn't take all that long, if you have the right information, and approach

BALANCE - always

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by 300Drive

I'm a 15 handicap who has identified the following "issues" with the help of a local PGA professional. My question is, what is the best "approach" to improving and how many drills should I use per issue?

1) A pull is my miss (over the top)
2) I overswing at the top (right arm bent too far, some right wrist break-down)
3) Sometimes</u> have the "chicken wing" blocking action (probably as a way of compensating for the pulls and trying to get the path to go further right than left)
4) Elvis Presley has nothing on me....overactive leg drive on the forward swing
5) Tempo

Other than that, I'd be scratch

I probabaly have identified 2-3 drills for Each of the items above....Should I focus on one issue above until it is "ok" then move to the next (say it take 3-6 months)? Should I work on 2 to 3 issues for the next 3- 6 months, alternating one practice session to each? Should I identifiy one drill for that problem and master it, or should I use multiple drills for each issue? What is a good EFFECTIVE approach?

Any reply would help....Thanks

The band aid approach of the PGA got you into this mess. Read, download and print out all of Brian's lessons and start from the beginning, It shouldn't take that long to get into a good stroke pattern to build on. Learn to keep a flat left wrist throughout the stroke. Learn hinge actions. Take a few months and get this going. Ask questions here and other TGM forums. Download some of the swings that Brian posted. Stay away from band aids, the scaps never heal. Go for it.

 

[drewitgolf]

6bee1dee wrote:

"The band aid approach of the PGA got you into this mess."

No need to bad mouth the PGA on unfounded asssumptions. As a PGA member for almost 20 years, I have been helping people learn the concepts put forth in TGM. While it is true that some PGA members are better instructors than others, there are many, many PGA Professionals(Brian included, as well as many that interact on this forum) that go above and beyond the staus quo to help their students.

Making your golf game better.....Making golf a better game.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by drewitgolf

6bee1dee wrote:

"The band aid approach of the PGA got you into this mess."

No need to bad mouth the PGA on unfounded asssumptions. As a PGA member for almost 20 years, I have been helping people learn the concepts put forth in TGM. While it is true that some PGA members are better instructors than others, there are many, many PGA Professionals(Brian included, as well as many that interact on this forum) that go above and beyond the staus quo to help their students.

Making your golf game better.....Making golf a better game.

Unfounded? You MAY not be one considering you teach some concepts put forth in TGM, but the mass majority of PGA pros teach band aids, tips, drills. It seems 300yd needed an overhaul not a drill.

But considering you didn't give him any help, just wanted to "give it to me," it makes me think, why didn't you.

300yd.. EdZ is right, work the chip shot, its a short swing that works the Three Imperatives: FLAT LEFT WRIST, CLUBHEAD LAG, and STRAIGHT PLANE LINE.

 

[300Drive]

Flat left wrist, lag, on-plane, start with chip shots....OK, but, how, specifically, is that going to stop me from pulls or overswinging, quiet my leg drive and improve tempo (I see how it will stop the chicken wing thing).

You guys are great at theory....I am bringing you a practical case to deal with and all you can do is throw out the "typical" TGM dogma...Thanks, but, i am afraid that what what you have suggested is overly simplistic in terms of where I am and what is needed....I'll gladly see a PGA pro for a long-term solution.

(Your recommendations can be given to all mid-handicappers which not a personalized approach. What if I hooked the ball?, sliced the ball, didnt get enough distance, had a sway, could not coil well, etc....same recommendations??? What a joke!

 

[drewitgolf]

EdZ' recomendations are right on the mark. Couldn't have said it any better myself. 300drive needs to understand that a ball gets it flight by force (downward). He (or she) also needs to understand the design characteristics of the golf club (the three functions) as they relate to the three imperatives. Educate the hands (without this more information only leads to more confusion).
EdZ, you would happen to be a PGA Professional?

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by 300Drive

Flat left wrist, lag, on-plane, start with chip shots....OK, but, how, specifically, is that going to stop me from pulls or overswinging, quiet my leg drive and improve tempo (I see how it will stop the chicken wing thing).

You guys are great at theory....I am bringing you a practical case to deal with and all you can do is throw out the "typical" TGM dogma...Thanks, but, i am afraid that what what you have suggested is overly simplistic in terms of where I am and what is needed....I'll gladly see a PGA pro for a long-term solution.

(Your recommendations can be given to all mid-handicappers which not a personalized approach. What if I hooked the ball?, sliced the ball, didnt get enough distance, had a sway, could not coil well, etc....same recommendations??? What a joke!

Shame on you, you listened to nothing.
This is not theory. This real life. From what I read you need to learn how to swing. You come over the top, have a chicken arm which means who have little control of the clubface, over active legs so your pivot sux, what else? NO tempo, great and you get testy? If you learn the third Imperative, you will never come over the top. Keep a flat left wrist, you can produce hing actions to draw, fade or shape any shot. These aren't ten min drills to cover up a bad swing. Find a good pga pro, I hope does I go job. But my advice is to learn the basics and read Brian's lessons to begin with. Sorry if I insulted your sensibilities.

 

[drewitgolf]

300Drive,
Communicating by the written word is difficult for both student and instructor. Not being able to see you visually only leads to more questions. However, your overswinging could be the root cause for all the problems you list. The strongest angle in geometry is a right angle (90 degrees). Letting your right arm go past that mark leads to loss of extensor action and a breakdown of your left arm. No one ever bent their left arm, they simply let their right arm go past 90 degrees (the right arm "L" turns into a "V"). To help you with this, understand that the right arm is always pushing. Apply pressure of the life line of your right palm against your left thumb will allow you to keep your left arm extended thru the support of the right arm, shortening your swing. Extensor Action keeps the left arm extended until followthrough (the point in the swing where both arm are straight; about 45 degrees past impact-seperation). Again it is difficult to see what extent you overswing without visual confirmation.
The over the top move is a pivot problem. The pivot should never do anything to take the hands off plane. The downswing is down out and forward. Never forward first. The arms, hands and club should be moved down plane by the pivot. The hips slide toward the target to initiate the down swing while the shoulders remain wound. This causes the spine to tilt, lowering the right shoulder (not moving it forward). It may feel like your right hip is under your shoulders. That is section 7-14 in TGM if you have a copy. Check your release position (the point after downswing where the club is level with the ground). the shaft should be parallel to the base of the plane or your target line. If you can get it there you can't come over the top. You become the victim of your own good golf swing.
Try these suggestions in slow motion first. If you can't do it slow you have no change of doing it fast. Keep you tempo constant, no bursts of speed.
The concept list above by EdZ are correct for helping you build your swing. Sometime, it is far easier to develop a stroke pattern that properly compensates rather then eliminates certain tendencies given the time you have to practice.

 

[tgmer]

In section 7-14, it said "subsituite with head motion or knee motion will casue swaying". When I come down from the top, I have a tendency to move my right knee toward the ball, obtain the sit down position, then the hip turns. Is this correct for the hip motion?

 

[300Drive]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

quote:Originally posted by 300Drive

Flat left wrist, lag, on-plane, start with chip shots....OK, but, how, specifically, is that going to stop me from pulls or overswinging, quiet my leg drive and improve tempo (I see how it will stop the chicken wing thing).

You guys are great at theory....I am bringing you a practical case to deal with and all you can do is throw out the "typical" TGM dogma...Thanks, but, i am afraid that what what you have suggested is overly simplistic in terms of where I am and what is needed....I'll gladly see a PGA pro for a long-term solution.

(Your recommendations can be given to all mid-handicappers which not a personalized approach. What if I hooked the ball?, sliced the ball, didnt get enough distance, had a sway, could not coil well, etc....same recommendations??? What a joke!

Shame on you, you listened to nothing.
This is not theory. This real life. From what I read you need to learn how to swing. You come over the top, have a chicken arm which means who have little control of the clubface, over active legs so your pivot sux, what else? NO tempo, great and you get testy? If you learn the third Imperative, you will never come over the top. Keep a flat left wrist, you can produce hing actions to draw, fade or shape any shot. These aren't ten min drills to cover up a bad swing. Find a good pga pro, I hope does I go job. But my advice is to learn the basics and read Brian's lessons to begin with. Sorry if I insulted your sensibilities.

Believe me, I have never, and will never, feel insulted by anyone on a forum. Shame on you for not understanding my real question, which is, regardless of anyones issues (all mid-handicappers have multiple issues, I happen to know what mine are and have listed them, doesnet mean I am an idiot and dont know what I want to happen, but, its a game to be learned, so.....I am learning, I dont know it all and I cant do it all or I'd be Tiger on Tour and not talking to you!).

If anyone has 2-3 swing flaws, what is the best approach to correcting them. Thats the question. It a question of efficiencty and process, if you understand that. I am really not asking anyone for suggestions on correcting the swing flaws, rather, what is the best process of fixing ANY swing flaw? If its drills, fine, 1 or 2 drills, over say 3-6 months. Do you "correct" one swing flaw at a time or do you work on more. If not drills, then what? It a question of process and efficiency, regardless of the flaws.

By the way, I have been playing golf for 5 years and to condem a mid-handicapper as simply "not knowing how to swing" is stupid. Those types of statements suggest that if you have flaws or are not scratch, you simply suck....All mid-handicappers suck...so, whats your point?

Anyway, still looking for someone who is a "Teacher" to recommend how they approach helping there students become efficient at correcting there swing flaws...

Thanks for any reply.

 

[300Drive]

quote:Originally posted by drewitgolf

300Drive,
Communicating by the written word is difficult for both student and instructor. Not being able to see you visually only leads to more questions. However, your overswinging could be the root cause for all the problems you list. The strongest angle in geometry is a right angle (90 degrees). Letting your right arm go past that mark leads to loss of extensor action and a breakdown of your left arm. No one ever bent their left arm, they simply let their right arm go past 90 degrees (the right arm "L" turns into a "V"). To help you with this, understand that the right arm is always pushing. Apply pressure of the life line of your right palm against your left thumb will allow you to keep your left arm extended thru the support of the right arm, shortening your swing. Extensor Action keeps the left arm extended until followthrough (the point in the swing where both arm are straight; about 45 degrees past impact-seperation). Again it is difficult to see what extent you overswing without visual confirmation.
The over the top move is a pivot problem. The pivot should never do anything to take the hands off plane. The downswing is down out and forward. Never forward first. The arms, hands and club should be moved down plane by the pivot. The hips slide toward the target to initiate the down swing while the shoulders remain wound. This causes the spine to tilt, lowering the right shoulder (not moving it forward). It may feel like your right hip is under your shoulders. That is section 7-14 in TGM if you have a copy. Check your release position (the point after downswing where the club is level with the ground). the shaft should be parallel to the base of the plane or your target line. If you can get it there you can't come over the top. You become the victim of your own good golf swing.
Try these suggestions in slow motion first. If you can't do it slow you have no change of doing it fast. Keep you tempo constant, no bursts of speed.
The concept list above by EdZ are correct for helping you build your swing. Sometime, it is far easier to develop a stroke pattern that properly compensates rather then eliminates certain tendencies given the time you have to practice.

Drewitgolf-

Thanks for re-inforcing those concepts....helpful reply to print and use.

 

[ej20]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

It is said over and over, but the best way to learn a proper swing, is to start with a chip shot - and don't move on - until you understand proper contact and 'swinging' motion - the rock on a string - downward contact, hands ahead, flat lead wrist, bent trail wrist

right hand only chips shots, keeping that wrist bent

you have to 'build' a good swing, from small swings, to full swings, from pivot to arms to hands

Work with broom, and a mop - keep the handle against your left side from hip to hip - use a mirror

If you don't get the 'small' swing down, you will never get the full swing down - and it doesn't take all that long, if you have the right information, and approach

BALANCE - always

Practicing chip shots is fine,but it doesn't address the "over the top" issue.There are no plane shifts in a mini chip shot..there are in a full swing.Until the golfer understands how,why and where the plane shifts occur,he will never swing the club consistently CORRECTLY on a full swing.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by drewitgolf

EdZ' recomendations are right on the mark. Couldn't have said it any better myself. 300drive needs to understand that a ball gets it flight by force (downward). He (or she) also needs to understand the design characteristics of the golf club (the three functions) as they relate to the three imperatives. Educate the hands (without this more information only leads to more confusion).
EdZ, you would happen to be a PGA Professional?

Nope, a software engineer, with a life long 'passion' for the game, and a joy in helping people play it better. I teach when I have the time..... actually, thinking about doing it more, but I'll be moving from the SF Bay area to Williamsburg, VA this summer.... so I'm a bit busy dealing with all that....looking forward to all the great courses out there though. I'd love to meet up with folks out that way, if anyone knows of folks that live in the area.

 

[EdZ]

300 - I'd throw out another option for you... training aids 'can' be a good thing, and while 'most' of them address very specific areas of a swing, a few are good 'whole' swing aids.

The top of the list IMO are the following:

momentus 'strength' trainer - stick to the 6.5 lb - note that this is DIFFERENT than the 'regular' momentus - weight above and below the hands is VERY good

this is a wonderful all around aid and one of the 'only' ones I've found that gives you the proper feel of the hands/arms - similar to split grip drills, but better IMO - great for hip to hip motion, and will help you with the 'building' of your swing

As mentioned, a string mop, and a broom - best household items you can use to get key feels and concepts

The edge of an old coffee table etc - a variation on a plane board - also one of 'the' best things you can use to get key swing feels (wife warning, don't use the good stuff!)

any of the 'straps' for the elbows and/or above the knees - this was Hogan's approach to teaching - really helps you feel the 'triangle' and the flow of the arms and hands WITH the body - keeping your elbows the same distance apart and pointed 'down' is a key feel to understand - but always remember the best 'swing' is going to be the one in which you 'do' very little, you just 'flow' and 'support the swinging on plane force' in BALANCE

Aside from those, I personally love the medicus 2000, although this IS a 'swingers' aid, and isn't 'really' good until you understand 'rotation' -the drills on the tape are better than most you will find

The aids from Rover golf are also as good as I've found - my personal favorite is the pure swing - lets you understand the proper feel of the hands/rotation

the 'power release' is also very good, similar to another 'classic' the 'swing-rite' - which I haven't used myself, but can understand why it has been around for so long

And last but 'not' least - a heavy rope, a towel, a rock on a string, even an old tee shirt with a knot.....

'swing' a large beach towel (slightly wet) - 'feel' it float back, 'wait' for it, and feel like it stays on your back as you feel the 'drag' through.... I must say, Brian finally gets some credit from me - as his 'drunk on the back' image is a good one to understand - a towel will help you get that

I'd be happy to add more if you want to know about how to use some of these......


and the one I use ALL the time -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3667059060&category=36235

hard to beat for the price - honestly, this, and George Kudson's book are all you really need (understnd the three imperatives, and pressure points!

 

[jrb15]

300:

I also am/was a 15, with some similar and some different specific flaws that manifested in my swing. After 2 1/2 years of various bad instructors, I tried a GSED TGM teacher for almost three months. Guess what? My swing got worse. (I do not lay blame. I just didn't get it from him.) I have recently found an instructor who over the last month is successfully reshaping my swing using a lot of video together with hands-on "feel" instruction--with my game and scores following. MY downswing flaws are principally a product of address and backswing position flaws. It is just a whole lot easier to hit the golfball well, if you are starting from a position that encourages the clubhead to trace the proper path and the hands to arrive ahead of the clubhead with your body in a supportive hitting position. (Sorry EdZ, no matter how many chipping drills, halfshot drills, dragging the clubhead through drills you do, you are a lot less likely to hit the ball with a full swing unless you start from a proper hitting position both at address and at the top of the full swing. I just became a whiz at drills, while my full swing fell apart.)

Redgoat posted in another thread in which he challenged the forum to analyze a woman student's swing flaws; and he posted pictures of her after an hour of work that showed startling improvement. As I understand it, he worked first with address, then takeaway, then plane, then top of swing position--and only then with impact. My recommendation, from my experience, is to work with whatever resources you have--and I hope that includes finding a perceptive pro (slightly better odds than a needle in a haystack)--to learn how to get the club to the top to be in position to hit; and then to study how the impact position looks as well as feels. (This involves far more than just getting your hands ahead of the ball, or swinging to an aiming point. It also means learning where your chest, head, shoulders, legs, feet, belt buckle, and rear end are at impact.) Take some video of yourself; then compare it with the swing sequences Redgoat generously provides at his website.

I don't know if this is the kind of information you're looking for, but I hope it helps. I, by the way, literally spent years trying to work out individual flaws from the swing. It just didn't work. I had to, and have to, get the basic shape right. I found that in fixing one flaw, I would generate another because the first flaw is really an unconscious compensation one makes to get back to the ball from an awkward position. Hope this makes sense.

Good luck

 

[EdZ]

jrb15 - no worries, I agree - setup is critical - and drills are only as useful as your 'understanding' of the 'concepts' that lead to good golf

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by 300Drive

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

quote:Originally posted by 300Drive

Flat left wrist, lag, on-plane, start with chip shots....OK, but, how, specifically, is that going to stop me from pulls or overswinging, quiet my leg drive and improve tempo (I see how it will stop the chicken wing thing).

You guys are great at theory....I am bringing you a practical case to deal with and all you can do is throw out the "typical" TGM dogma...Thanks, but, i am afraid that what what you have suggested is overly simplistic in terms of where I am and what is needed....I'll gladly see a PGA pro for a long-term solution.

(Your recommendations can be given to all mid-handicappers which not a personalized approach. What if I hooked the ball?, sliced the ball, didnt get enough distance, had a sway, could not coil well, etc....same recommendations??? What a joke!

Shame on you, you listened to nothing.
This is not theory. This real life. From what I read you need to learn how to swing. You come over the top, have a chicken arm which means who have little control of the clubface, over active legs so your pivot sux, what else? NO tempo, great and you get testy? If you learn the third Imperative, you will never come over the top. Keep a flat left wrist, you can produce hing actions to draw, fade or shape any shot. These aren't ten min drills to cover up a bad swing. Find a good pga pro, I hope does I go job. But my advice is to learn the basics and read Brian's lessons to begin with. Sorry if I insulted your sensibilities.

Believe me, I have never, and will never, feel insulted by anyone on a forum. Shame on you for not understanding my real question, which is, regardless of anyones issues (all mid-handicappers have multiple issues, I happen to know what mine are and have listed them, doesnet mean I am an idiot and dont know what I want to happen, but, its a game to be learned, so.....I am learning, I dont know it all and I cant do it all or I'd be Tiger on Tour and not talking to you!).

If anyone has 2-3 swing flaws, what is the best approach to correcting them. Thats the question. It a question of efficiencty and process, if you understand that. I am really not asking anyone for suggestions on correcting the swing flaws, rather, what is the best process of fixing ANY swing flaw? If its drills, fine, 1 or 2 drills, over say 3-6 months. Do you "correct" one swing flaw at a time or do you work on more. If not drills, then what? It a question of process and efficiency, regardless of the flaws.

By the way, I have been playing golf for 5 years and to condem a mid-handicapper as simply "not knowing how to swing" is stupid. Those types of statements suggest that if you have flaws or are not scratch, you simply suck....All mid-handicappers suck...so, whats your point?

Anyway, still looking for someone who is a "Teacher" to recommend how they approach helping there students become efficient at correcting there swing flaws...

Thanks for any reply.

Never said you sux, I said you didn't read the suggestions and just seem to want another quick fix, a few drills. With several swing flaws, it would be wise to build a good one swing, not attack TGM. Do what you want but the key to a good swing is one this forum, if you look for it and put the knowleadge to practice. If not, try a stronger grip, think about hitting a spike a few feet to the right of your right foot to prevent over the top or pull a rope to ring a bell,this well keep the club in line, say fred-die coup-les while swinging for tempo, throw a club down the target line to get a feeling of releaseing the club and arms to keep the elbow from being a chicken. Are those the band aids you want? Give them a try. TGM isn't theory, its feel through mechanics.

 

[Redgoat]

jrb15,

Makes perfect sense to me!

Redgoat

 

[Brian Manzella]

FOR 300...

1) A pull is my miss (over the top)
Brian: Did you know that you are supposed to LOOK AT and HIT the inside-back of the ball?

If you can't do it by looking and aiming you are using an incorrect shoulder 'motion.'

Try to make your left shoulder go UP to start the downswing and make your right shoulder go toward the same inside-back of the ball as the clubhead should.

If still can't...make sure your TAILBONE is closer to the target then your NECK BONE at and THROUGH impact.

2) I overswing at the top (right arm bent too far, some right wrist break-down)
Brian: Make sure you feel like your right arm is stretching your left arm away from you the WHOLE SWING.

3) Sometimes have the "chicken wing" blocking action (probably as a way of compensating for the pulls and trying to get the path to go further right than left)
Brian: ROLL your left forearm AS FAR AS YOU CAN through impact to two/thirds of the way to the finish. Don't worry about hooks or pulls, if these result, make sure you are doing #1 and #2 above AND your HANDS stay ahead of your clubhead through imapct!!

4) Elvis Presley has nothing on me....overactive leg drive on the forward swing
Brian: Sounds like you need to read this month article...THE PIVOT.
Other than that, make sure your feet ARE MOVED...they don't MOVE...get it?

5) Tempo
Brian: To control your speed practice this drill...Make a full swing FULL SPEED, then make a full swing 3/4ths speed (ball should fly 3/4ths distance, do the same for 1/2 and 1/4th...very difficult...but it WORKS!

Give us the report!