Beta Torque

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cwdlaw223

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Is there a force on the shaft in the downswing that needs to be resisted with "beta torque" to stop the shaft/club head from getting to much in to out? Is this force pattern specific and/golfer specific? Curious about this topic in general.

When I give a little tumble (i.e., beta torque) in the downswing I hit the ball much better and zero out my path. Funny how this "over the top" move makes my path zero.
 
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cwdlaw223

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Feels like during the downswing. Might scientifically start earlier given the small time variables. I suspect our brains need to be trained for correct spatial awareness. Feels wrong (for now). I'm sure I'll eventually over do it. Golf is often a balancing act.
 
JEREMY5577

JEREMY5577

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I've been curious as well. I've been playing around with it for about 3 weeks. I've been having the most success applying as much beta torque as I can while laying the shaft down on an inside path. This is pretty much all I've worked on lately.
 
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dbl

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My I say, I use it too, but do not think of it as an OTT move at all. Especially with a hand path that goes, say, "mostly" straight down.
 
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SteveT

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cwdlaw223 said:
Is there a force on the shaft in the downswing that needs to be resisted with "beta torque" to stop the shaft/club head from getting to much in to out? Is this force pattern specific and/golfer specific? Curious about this topic in general.

When I give a little tumble (i.e., beta torque) in the downswing I hit the ball much better and zero out my path. Funny how this "over the top" move makes my path zero.
Click to expand...

FYI, per Nesbit:

"The angular quantities are resolved
according to the relative body (Euler angle) 1-2-3
Bryant angle convention where alpha motion (α) is
about the X-axis, beta motion (β) is about the Y’-
axis, and gamma motion (γ) is about the Z’’-axis
(Kane et al., 1983). The reference coordinate system,
established when the subject addresses the ball,
places the X-axis (alpha) perpendicular to the club
shaft and aligned with the bottom edge of the club
face as viewed down the club shaft, the Z-axis
(gamma) pointing down the club shaft, and the Y-
axis (beta) completing a right-handed coordinate
system. The alpha component coincides with the
swing angular motion, the beta component is a
measure of the pitch motion of the club relative to
the swing, and the gamma component is the roll
angular motion about the long axis of the shaft."
Click to expand...

Could you reword your posting in terms of "pitch motion of the club relative to the swing"?

Could you indicate what forces you are applying to 'tumble' that you believe is zeroing your path?

Thanks.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Beta Torque is either barley applied early, or actually in the negative early on.

It then ramps up on a slight slope until about the "magic spot" and then goes pretty quickly into negative by impact.
 
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hrely

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W
Would the type of backswing, for example soft draw vs. NHA, affect how much beta torque, if any, could be applied initially at start down? Or how much negative beta? Thanks
 
Michael Finney

Michael Finney

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cwdlaw223 said:
Is there a force on the shaft in the downswing that needs to be resisted with "beta torque" to stop the shaft/club head from getting to much in to out? Is this force pattern specific and/golfer specific? Curious about this topic in general.

When I give a little tumble (i.e., beta torque) in the downswing I hit the ball much better and zero out my path. Funny how this "over the top" move makes my path zero.
Click to expand...

Yes, gravity.......during the first half the downswing the entire mass of the club wants your left forearm to continue to pronate......downward hand path and beta torque fight gravity during this phase
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Alpha : In plane

Beta : through the plane - the pitch or tumble of the club

Gamma : twist about the shaft


Getting the FORCES right, instead of the POSITIONS that do not indicate the forces, and checking everything on TrackMan, is really the difference between what we are doing, and what just about anyone else is.
 
R

Richard the Nerd

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Brian Manzella said:
Alpha : In plane

Beta : through the plane - the pitch or tumble of the club

Gamma : twist about the shaft


Getting the FORCES right, instead of the POSITIONS that do not indicate the forces, and checking everything on TrackMan, is really the difference between what we are doing, and what just about anyone else is.
Click to expand...

Brian...didn't you mention another one....kinda like cocking/uncocking in a vertical plane...log splitting motion? Or did I mess that up?
 
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cwdlaw223

New
Brian Manzella said:
Alpha : In plane

Beta : through the plane - the pitch or tumble of the club

Gamma : twist about the shaft


Getting the FORCES right, instead of the POSITIONS that do not indicate the forces, and checking everything on TrackMan, is really the difference between what we are doing, and what just about anyone else is.
Click to expand...

Brian -

Is anyone working on a club that measures/calculates these forces? Now that would generate some interesting data if it could be designed. The clubface and shaft as a measuring device would be impressive.
 
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Richard the Nerd

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As far as the Beta.....would negative be falling away from the plane line and positive be falling toward? And...on Beta....what are the appropriate parameters as far as "model"? Or is that one of "it depends"? Like first there is some reverse Beta and then some tumble Beta? Does this also relate to plane angle (Alpha angle?)?
 
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ParHunter

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dbl said:
Log splitting seems like "in plane" - alpha
Click to expand...
The fact that there are different opinions highlights that there is some information missing. What movement is used to generate what torque. Is extension/flexion of the right hand always Beta torque or is that only beta torque at the beginning of the downswing but at impact it is actual alpha torque?
 
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