bio feedback

[mandrin]

I followed the link provided by BurnItUp , "When Obsessions Collide: Golf and Physics", to a lecture given by Dr. Robert Grober, prof. of physics, Yale University, and given at the Aspen Center For Physics. I liked the presentation both for its contents and the way it was given.

We have here an interesting example how science can be useful. A very simply model. Two miniature accelerometers, measuring radial acceleration, one in the grip the other close to the club head, both inside the shaft. The signals obtained and its interpretation verified and validated with many golfers, pros and amateurs. Its usefulness lies in the remarkable but mysterious action of bio-feedback as an aid in learning.



nmgolfer, lurking on this site to further his scientific education, should note that the experimental evidence presented in the lecture shows, for all golfers tested, a distinct deceleration around impact for the hands (lower trace). Also he should note that the maximum torque was found to be applied way before impact and that the club from thereon mainly free-wheels through impact. But for someone stuck in simple particle physics, multibody dynamics and kinetic chains are way beyond reach and understanding.

 

[dominicscaife]

Incredibly interesting Lecture

Fascinating stuff... loved the way it illustrates the importance of a 'quiet transition' (very smooth deceleration and acceleration with almost a pause at the top).

The lecture emphasizes the usefulness of things like the 'back and forth' drill and LCT and the technology itself seems to complement these ideas hugely by giving instant audio feedback.

And it's even gone commercial now so we can all give it a go...

System-1 Solo Edition

 

[Brian Manzella]

It is nothing new just a more expensive trainer on that concept. I invented and patented a trainer 7 years ago to teach that concept of bio-feedback. It cost less than $100 and I will have it at my booth at the PGA show if you are interested. It provides not only audio feedback but feel references as well.

That's interesting John.

The thing about Dr. Grober's device is that I am sure it is first class in every way, and is his ONLY device.

I plan on checking his out at the Show.

(Of course I'll visit your booth as well, but this is a thread on THIS device)

 

[twitch127]

Brian,

Give us your un-biased review of the two.... when you get back from the show. I'm not sold on Grober's device. It looks a little over-engineered for what it's uses are. What happened to Ben's good old water bottle. lol

 

[tourdeep]

The professional swing tempo is so consistent no matter the club in hand. I think Grober said this was true with even half swings.

His device validates the 3:1 ratio, backswing/downswing, from Tour Tempo. As golfers using this device, we get our feedback from audio, the sound of the club, so we can use our hearing sense to maximize a most important element of the golf swing, tempo.

 

[mandrin]

It is nothing new just a more expensive trainer on that concept. I invented and patented a trainer 7 years ago to teach that concept of bio-feedback. It cost less than $100 and I will have it at my booth at the PGA show if you are interested. It provides not only audio feedback but feel references as well.

Guitar hero,

I am convinced that Dr Grober has a patent. The instrumentation is rather simple for someone knowledgeable regarding modern miniature electronics and would be rather easy to put together. To go ahead commercially without patent protection would be rather naive. If your trainer uses bio-feedback it would interesting to hear from you about the effectiveness of this approach.

 

[mandrin]

That's interesting John.

The thing about Dr. Grober's device is that I am sure it is first class in every way, and is his ONLY device.

I plan on checking his out at the Show.

(Of course I'll visit your booth as well, but this is a thread on THIS device)

Brian,

More and more miniature electronics will be used to open up new avenues in teaching. It will likely be common place rather soon. If you want to get/remain ahead of the field that is just another area to keep watching closely.

 

[KOC]

Wonder what does this device sound if a golfer lean left, pause, tilt and swing down;
Wonder what does this device sound if a golfer sway right, pause, shift and swing down.

 

[GaryC_47]

There is no comparison between the Sonic Golf device and the RoverGolf Power Release (I assume that is the one Guitar Hero is referring to.)

The Power Release is simply a club with a hollow ball which slides up and down on the shaft while you slowly swing. The audio feedback is the click when the ball reaches either end of the shaft, at the point in time when the club is vertical in the backswing or the downswing (impact.)

The Sonic Golf is a... well watch the video or visit the website. The audio feedback lets you hear the rhythm, tempo and timing of your swing in real time. It was amazing how easily some of the members of the audience were able to adjust their release in a matter of a few swings. I think I will order one.

What is disappointing is that there is no interface to a PC so you can't see the graphic results of your swing as he showed in the video.

Vijay uses one:

Q. I noticed you've been using a training aid with kind of a listening device. I believe it's called Sonic Golf. Can you talk about how that device works, how you got started with it and what essentially it does for maybe the swing changes you've made or just your swing in general?

VIJAY SINGH: Well, that was developed by Dr. Grober. He's a professor of physics at Yale University. Freddie Funk introduced me to one of those gadgets in Ponte Vedra, and it's really used for rhythm. I mean, you put it on and there's no sound to it. The device goes on the back of a club, and it needs a special grip, so the device comes off and on. You can put it in different clubs as long as you have the right grip, and there's a wireless sensor that you have in your pocket and your headset kind of gets -- you hook your headset to it.

When you're swinging the club, if you keep the club still with the device in it, it doesn't make a sound. But if you actually swing it there's a rhythm to it, and it's according to your rhythm. If a fast swinger would have that, he would listen to a fast rhythm. All it does is listen to your own rhythm, and that way you can figure out the top of the backswing and the start of the backswing and the top of the backswing and obviously through the ball. It's like a symphony. It really just hums to your rhythm. The more you do it, the more consistent you get with the same humming sound, and it just helps you with your rhythm, and that's the only way I can describe it. It's the best device I've ever used.

I've been using it since the U.S. Open, and I think it's one of the best training aids. When it does come out on the market for any golfer or pro, amateur or even beginners -- it's one of the best things I've ever used.
It's called Sonic Golf, and you can actually go on line and type in Sonic Golf and get all the information you want.

 

[Robbohank]

There is no comparison between the Sonic Golf device and the RoverGolf Power Release (I assume that is the one Guitar Hero is referring to.)

The Power Release is simply a club with a hollow ball which slides up and down on the shaft while you slowly swing. The audio feedback is the click when the ball reaches either end of the shaft, at the point in time when the club is vertical in the backswing or the downswing (impact.)

The Sonic Golf is a... well watch the video or visit the website. The audio feedback lets you hear the rhythm, tempo and timing of your swing in real time. It was amazing how easily some of the members of the audience were able to adjust their release in a matter of a few swings. I think I will order one.

What is disappointing is that there is no interface to a PC so you can't see the graphic results of your swing as he showed in the video.

Vijay uses one:

Q. I noticed you've been using a training aid with kind of a listening device. I believe it's called Sonic Golf. Can you talk about how that device works, how you got started with it and what essentially it does for maybe the swing changes you've made or just your swing in general?

VIJAY SINGH: Well, that was developed by Dr. Grober. He's a professor of physics at Yale University. Freddie Funk introduced me to one of those gadgets in Ponte Vedra, and it's really used for rhythm. I mean, you put it on and there's no sound to it. The device goes on the back of a club, and it needs a special grip, so the device comes off and on. You can put it in different clubs as long as you have the right grip, and there's a wireless sensor that you have in your pocket and your headset kind of gets -- you hook your headset to it.

When you're swinging the club, if you keep the club still with the device in it, it doesn't make a sound. But if you actually swing it there's a rhythm to it, and it's according to your rhythm. If a fast swinger would have that, he would listen to a fast rhythm. All it does is listen to your own rhythm, and that way you can figure out the top of the backswing and the start of the backswing and the top of the backswing and obviously through the ball. It's like a symphony. It really just hums to your rhythm. The more you do it, the more consistent you get with the same humming sound, and it just helps you with your rhythm, and that's the only way I can describe it. It's the best device I've ever used.

I've been using it since the U.S. Open, and I think it's one of the best training aids. When it does come out on the market for any golfer or pro, amateur or even beginners -- it's one of the best things I've ever used.
It's called Sonic Golf, and you can actually go on line and type in Sonic Golf and get all the information you want.

The guys at "The Speedstik" aren't gonna like some of these quotes from VJ!

This device looks pretty interesting, and the presentation video Mandrin posted is a good view. I get the impression it is related a bit to the Tour Tempo stuff, but this really allows you to sense (hear) what you're doing with your swing's rhythm and speed.

An interesting point from the 10 or so "test subjects" that used it on stage after the presentation. I don't think a single one of them had their fastest clubspeed occurring before impact...... he tried to have almost everyone try to get "faster sooner". Makes me wonder how common the "early release" flaw really is.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Guitar hero,

I am convinced that Dr Grober has a patent. The instrumentation is rather simple for someone knowledgeable regarding modern miniature electronics and would be rather easy to put together. To go ahead commercially without patent protection would be rather naive. If your trainer uses bio-feedback it would interesting to hear from you about the effectiveness of this approach.

I started working with bio-feedback in 1991. It seems to help some golfers. I have had more success with positive transfer training of new motor skills from feel. Now that I have discovered how to train the sweet spot balanced motion (feel) I am seeing golfers improve incredibly fast with lasting results. The biggest change is in the smash factor with the driver. Most golfers I work with have a smash factor of 1.38 or lower. I can now improve their smash factor with sweet spot balanced training in as little as 5 minutes to 1.43-1.48. If you really look at the research it is not all about club head speed as well. I had a pro today who was swinging at 103 with a smash factor of 1.43. After 5 minutes he was swinging 99 mph with a smash factor of 1.49-1.50 and hitting the ball 18 yards further.

 

[mandrin]

I started working with bio-feedback in 1991. It seems to help some golfers. I have had more success with positive transfer training of new motor skills from feel. Now that I have discovered how to train the sweet spot balanced motion (feel) I am seeing golfers improve incredibly fast with lasting results. The biggest change is in the smash factor with the driver. Most golfers I work with have a smash factor of 1.38 or lower. I can now improve their smash factor with sweet spot balanced training in as little as 5 minutes to 1.43-1.48. If you really look at the research it is not all about club head speed as well. I had a pro today who was swinging at 103 with a smash factor of 1.43. After 5 minutes he was swinging 99 mph with a smash factor of 1.49-1.50 and hitting the ball 18 yards further.

Guitar Hero,

Thanks for your response. From 'biofeedback' to 'positive transfer training' to 'sweet balance motion training', seems quite an interesting and varied approach over time. You mention 'sweet spot balanced motion'. I always like ideas on which I might perhaps be able to apply some mathematics. But just can't see what it is all about, making so much of a difference. What about explaining some of the basics. It would be greatly appreciated.

I thought a smash factor of 1.5 to be considered near perfect, with weekend players usually perhaps more towards 1.3. What is the highest smash factor you have measured? You have accurate equipment? The '1.49-1.50 pro', do you know perhaps the clubhead mass of the club used for the training/measurement? With maximum permissible CoR value of 0.83 and a clubhead mass of .2 kg, a smash factor of 1.5 is the theoretical limit.

 

[dominicscaife]

Hypothesis for you

'A clubhead that is accelerating slightly at impact leads to more consistent distance than a clubhead that is decelerating at impact.'

I'm trying to rationalize why all those good players club head speed was higher just after impact.

I wonder if Dr. Grober's advice may lead to higher distance on perfect hits, but in the imperfect world where we play golf, where grass, mud and other bits may come in between the club and the ball, perhaps an accelerating clubhead is optimal.

I'm curious about the science of this if there is any research out there, my intuitive feeling is that an accelerating clubhead is more favourable in these imperfect cases, bad lie, slightly fat hit etc.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Golf Impact Physics.....

'A clubhead that is accelerating slightly at impact leads to more consistent distance than a clubhead that is decelerating at impact.'

I'm trying to rationalize why all those good players club head speed was higher just after impact.

I wonder if Dr. Grober's advice may lead to higher distance on perfect hits, but in the imperfect world where we play golf, where grass, mud and other bits may come in between the club and the ball, perhaps an accelerating clubhead is optimal.

I'm curious about the science of this if there is any research out there, my intuitive feeling is that an accelerating clubhead is more favourable in these imperfect cases, bad lie, slightly fat hit etc.

Golf Impact Physics

__________________________________________________________

"Increase in ball departure velocity due to a torque on shaft exerted by golfer.

An reasonable value for the force exerted by shaft on clubhead due to torque applied by golfer, 20 N (4.5 lbs).

Using relation (27) gives for the increase in ball velocity due to force applied on clubhead,



Hence a negligible increase in ball departure velocity of only 0.05 % "

__________________________________________________________

World Class Golfers Apply WAY MORE Torque Shaft than 4.5#s on the Clubhead.... Probably at Least 45 #s..... Therefore....... Have a Great Day....

 

[cmartingolf]

'A clubhead that is accelerating slightly at impact leads to more consistent distance than a clubhead that is decelerating at impact.'

I'm trying to rationalize why all those good players club head speed was higher just after impact.

I wonder if Dr. Grober's advice may lead to higher distance on perfect hits, but in the imperfect world where we play golf, where grass, mud and other bits may come in between the club and the ball, perhaps an accelerating clubhead is optimal.

I'm curious about the science of this if there is any research out there, my intuitive feeling is that an accelerating clubhead is more favourable in these imperfect cases, bad lie, slightly fat hit etc.

My "guess," is that the club is still seeking an inline condition during impact.

That leads to the question and I'm sure one of you has the answer, but doesn't the ball slow the club head down??? Thus, how can a club striking a ball speed up after hitting a ball?

I'm not smart enough to read Billy Bronco's link...

 

[mandrin]

'A clubhead that is accelerating slightly at impact leads to more consistent distance than a clubhead that is decelerating at impact.'

I'm trying to rationalize why all those good players club head speed was higher just after impact.

I wonder if Dr. Grober's advice may lead to higher distance on perfect hits, but in the imperfect world where we play golf, where grass, mud and other bits may come in between the club and the ball, perhaps an accelerating clubhead is optimal.

I'm curious about the science of this if there is any research out there, my intuitive feeling is that an accelerating clubhead is more favourable in these imperfect cases, bad lie, slightly fat hit etc.

dominicscaife,

The ball being launched into space after impact gets all of its momentum/energy from the club head. Therefore, for all golfers, for all their shots and for all clubs, the clubhead has substantial less speed after impact.

Acceleration, deceleration, it does not matter just get an adequate impact velocity and the appropriate 3D impact conditions for the shot at hand. However always mixed in with these discussions is the very legitimate feel aspect of the matter, i.e., feeling as if you want maximum speed beyond ball position.

This feel /real dichotomy is often caused by those who should or even do know better. If I recall correctly even Dr Grober talks in his presentation about maximum velocity beyond impact without any further caution or explanation.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Relative Speed.....

My "guess," is that the club is still seeking an inline condition during impact.

That leads to the question and I'm sure one of you has the answer, but doesn't the ball slow the club head down??? Thus, how can a club striking a ball speed up after hitting a ball?

I'm not smart enough to read Billy Bronco's link...

I Assume the Poster Means Faster than Bad Golfers... Ie. Good Golfers and Bad Golfers ClubHeads Both Slow After Impact but the Good Golfers Slow Less.... Also Smart is Not Your Problem.... Just Lack of Knowledge(Ignorance).... As far as Smarts Go You are in the Top 10% in this Forum....Ie According to my List.... Have a Great Day.....

 

[mandrin]

Golf Impact Physics

__________________________________________________________

"Increase in ball departure velocity due to a torque on shaft exerted by golfer.

An reasonable value for the force exerted by shaft on clubhead due to torque applied by golfer, 20 N (4.5 lbs).

Using relation (27) gives for the increase in ball velocity due to force applied on clubhead,



Hence a negligible increase in ball departure velocity of only 0.05 % "

__________________________________________________________

World Class Golfers Apply WAY MORE Torque Shaft than 4.5#s on the Clubhead.... Probably at Least 45 #s..... Therefore....... Have a Great Day....

Bronco Billy,

If your post isn’t simply dust stirring or noise but sustained by a conviction I invite you to take your most expensive driver, put it into a vise, with shaft horizontal, and tie a 45 lbs object to the hosel. Don’t come back crying that you were all mistaken and that I should not have invited you to be consistent with your belief system.

Please enjoy and learn from your new found wisdom.

 

[pecky987]

I Assume the Poster Means Faster than Bad Golfers... Ie. Good Golfers and Bad Golfers ClubHeads Both Slow After Impact but the Good Golfers Slow Less.... Also Smart is Not Your Problem.... Just Lack of Knowledge(Ignorance).... As far as Smarts Go You are in the Top 10% in this Forum....Ie According to my List.... Have a Great Day.....

i'll warn u now billy, if you keep this up u wont remain much longer

 

[Bronco Billy]

Ok You are Right on 45#s But....

Bronco Billy,

If your post isn’t simply dust stirring or noise but sustained by a conviction I invite you to take your most expensive driver, put it into a vise, with shaft horizontal, and tie a 45 lbs object to the hosel. Don’t come back crying that you were all mistaken and that I should not have invited you to be consistent with your belief system.

Please enjoy and learn from your new found wisdom.

I Did Press a Scale with the Head of my Driver Held at the Grip End and Put 15#s Torque on it... And Probably Could have Put More Torque on it.... Could You Kindly Translate using Your Equations....A % of Total Speed This 15# Torque Would Produce.... Thanks.....