BLOG: Lines are for Dummies!

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
I bought my first video camera in 1985, and I was drawing lines on my NEC 25-inch monitor with Dry Erase pens the next day.

For three solid years before that, I drew lines with tracing paper over every sequence photo that I could find.

It was a great help to my career at the time, because I learned a lot.

Over the years, video went to high speed shutter with the Sony V9 in about late 1986, early 1987. At 1 1/000th of a sec shutter speed over 30 frames per second, you could see all sorts of great things.

Like the first lie I ever blew up.
Folks do not lift up their heads when they top it.​
Most, have their heads go down!!!

And the second lie,
"slicers have their hands forward at impact."​
Not a chance, as they all try to flip it closed.

So, I continued to draw lines, until we gave up on them for one important piece of the puzzle.

Path.

You see, everyone thinks that the plane is a flat piece of glass, I don't anymore, I think it warps on the backswing and until the kinetic chain starts snapping, but that is another story for another day.

This plane angle thing has intrigued golfers and golf instructors for centuries. Or at least since Seymour Dunn wrote his book in the early 20th century.

Hogan's pane of glass made the plane a mainstream idea, and folks have been trying to get on some "plane angle," and be able to verify this angle with stills of video or pictures ever since.

For a long time the argument was where to draw the lines.

It turns out, it really doesn't matter.

Why?

Because drawing lines to find out where the shaft is pointing relative to the ground, or what precise angle that shaft is on, or the so-called "sweetspot" plane is on—or pointing to, or what angle an arm or torso is on is just NEVER going to be accurate.

Why?

Parallax!

Look at this photo:

linesarejunk.jpg


TOP ROW:
I drew a PIXEL PRECISE red line from a spot on the "left wrist" through a spot on the left shoulder on the first pic on the left.

On each successive picture from the left pic, I re-lined up the red line through the same spot on the "left shoulder."

The green line is the same "idea" as the first red line, same spot on the "left wrist" through a spot on the left shoulder.

Notice the WILD differences.

BOTTOM ROW:
I drew the yellow line as a through the point of the "right shoulder connection plane" through the ball on each pic. Different ANGLE LINES here in each pic, just using the same reference point.

The orange line is the ball through a precise spot on the torso. Different ANGLE LINES here in each pic, just using the same reference point.
There is lots to learn here...

This the EXACT SAME pose of my IKEA model with different camera angles.

Obviously some are off, ever see the pics that make Sam Snead look like he played a driver off of his right foot, or the ones of Hogan went he is aiming 10-20 yards left of the lens?

It is done ALL THE TIME.

And it ends now.

If you are using angled lines, and you are using them to measure angles, and where things you re drawing them on are pointing to on the ground you are looking at a lie about 99% of the time, as far as a whole golfer goes in one still.

Why?

Because....it doesn't make ANY difference HOW you draw the lines, the LENS of the CAMERA, HAS TO be EXACTLY on the PLANE ANGLE (Vertical Swing Plane) and PRECISELY parallel to the PLANE LINE (Horizontal Swing Plane) of whatever it is you think you are measuring, or what you are seeing—or THINK you are seeing is JUNK.

So, even if you get lucky with the shaft, or the sweetspot plane, or the arm, and have the lens on THAT plane, and have it precisely aligned, the rest of the golfer WON'T BE!!!!!

So, i repeat:

If you are using angled lines, and you are using them to measure angles, and where things you are drawing them on are pointing to on the ground you are looking at a lie about 99% of the time, as far as a whole golfer goes in one still.

So people who do this are taking WHOLESALE GUESSES, and coming up with "junk science."

That's why I say:

Lines are for Dummies!

You CAN use lines that are Horizontal and Vertical and show somewhat more accurately what is going on as far as up and down and side to side movement.

They won't be 100% either.

Some of my critics, bless their little hearts, have called my a hypocrite because I use line in some of my swing analysis on this site, and every now and then when I am on the road, and someone has a line drawing program, or I am giving a seminar, etc.

Sure I do.

By I don't draw them to show precise angles or where one of these angles are pointing to on the ground.

Because THAT would be hypocritical.

The "line drawers" of the world will cry a million tears over all of this.

But, hey folks, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

They make 2 really good 3D machines for all of that. The AMM and the MATT system.

30 to 45 G's each.

Just like TrackMan blew a lot of folks up, this will too.

It's my job.

:)
 
Great and simple and elegant - thanks Brian.

Outbreak of technology, like video becoming cheaper, drove line drawing IMO (combined with their being no contrary argument to dsioute the benefit of line-drawing)- can technology develop to make "d plane awareness" break out into the general consciousness??
 
Brian:

Excellent demonstration of one of the pitfalls of 2D video. Many of the "experts" that I've seen on TV and taken lessons from usually start out with a swing theory and then draw whatever lines they need to prove their theory.

With the cost of cameras and computers going down and the capability going up may be possible to have 3D rendering at more facilities. Do you have the capability of 3D video at your place?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
GREAT QUESTION that says it ALL!!!

Someone asked me the GREAT question about NOT using lines to teach with.

Which 99% of the time—I don't.

"I have no idea how you would turn this (not drawing lines) into a practical teaching program without indicating to the student the various determining relationships that go into a sound golf swing.

If you do that, you are, either in language or on VH1, "drawing lines." I know you don't just get your students on trackman and come back periodically to see that they are getting closer to zero, and however they do it is fine with you.

You have to give them ideas, cues, "hands here at address, shoulder just off level, etc."-- these aren't arbitrary, but help to produce a position at the top that you feel the student can carry into impact and the follow-through.

...I just want to know what steps go between the guy booking an appointment and the trackman numbers getting to zero, and how those steps don't involve what you are calling "arbitrary positions," geometrical patterns, lines on a computer.

Just curious, really."
The point is this from this question:

Folks out there have a VERY DISTORTED VIEW on what real golf teaching is.

And, BTW...

What is Real Golf Teaching?

It starts with watching the student and asking questions...

The teacher needs to watch and LISTEN to the contact, watch the ball flight, the clubface, the Left Arm Flying Wedge, hand path, and pivot....but he might need less of these.

The teacher then needs to DIG IN AND CHANGE THINGS RIGHT AWAY, but only those that effect the D-Plane and contact, unless there needs to be a side-step.

Knowing how much time you have, FIX THEM now, and don't bastardize.

And then, if the student approves, keep doing it.

Of course, to do it this way, you have to know what you are doing, and sadly, there is not a lot of that going on out there.

I said it once, and I;ll say it 10,000,000 more times:

The REASON folks don't know what great golfer teaching is, is they have NEVER SEEN IT.
 
Brian,

I thought the lesson you gave me in Ann Arbor was good soon afterward, but now that I've had time to actually think about what you were having me do I'm confident that my full swing is going to improve leaps and bounds this upcoming year.

I can feel the sources of power, what parts you can intend to control and what parts I used to try to control that only made things worse. The swing just feels completely different.

And your post above is exactly how you taught it to me.

The best!

- Jeff
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
And there is more....

• I had guys who could SPLIT THE MIDDLE of any line you could draw from release point to the swivel.

We KNEW from using video that the faces were DEAD SQUARE on some of the shots, because even at 30fps, and 1/2000th of a second shutter speed, you would get lucky every now and then and catch impact or separation.

But, the golfers hit the ball left with short irons.

It was the D-plane. Homer Kelley, Mac O'Grady, Seymour Dunn, or whoever, could draw lines, but were missing the most important two, the top and bottom vectors of the D-Plane.

Of course, you can't see those in ANY 2D video. And you never will.

• Homer Kelley also talked about hinge action, the 6 degree 3D machines have proven that "horizontal hinging" is a complete myth. On video you would swear...

• You also see folks drawing dots for body CoG's and trust me folks, the guys who work with 3D, and don't have a horse in the race, think this is a joke as well. You just can't tell unless you had multiple ultra-high speed cameras, and good CAD programs.

Man o'Man, just buy an AMM machine if you want to REALLY KNOW. Or a force plate system.

• You can NOT see the kinetic chain on video worth a shat.

• When you teach on TrackMan, you see the complete JOKE that video, or really, any ARBITRARY golf positions are. If you can get golfers to fix their D-Plane, you see if they can putt.

• For the folks who say:

"When I draw lines, and the student gets closer, they hit it better."

I'd say this:

When I get golfers closer to zeros on TrackMan, they hit it RIGHT AT THE HOLE!

• Line Drawing CAN HELP some folks, but it can LIE and make you change things "just because."

• The problem I have is when folks try to show how upright, and how flat backswing are—at any place in the swing—with ALL KINDS OF PARALLAX!!!

For instance, two golfers who LOOK TO THE WHOLE WORLD on a 2D still that they are both have the club at parallel at the top.

Golfer one has long arms, Golfer two, short.

Golfer one has a lot of wristcock, and is 5 foot 8.

Golfer two has very little wristcock, and is 6 foot 2.

Let's say that the person shooting the video, or taking the stills, stood in the EXACT SAME PLACE relative to the golfers.

And, let's say that they swung the club to the top on the EXACT same plane. I don't care which one, pick your reference point.

Golfer #1 will look flatter than #2, his hands will be closer to the camera, he will look more bent over, etc., etc., etc.

It has held GOLF back, and made a lot of folks trying to make their points, use a lot of 2D pictures.

• If you have enough photos, and before Katrina I had so many you wouldn't believe it, you could cut up 100's of photos to make any one method look like it was 100% correct.

• And, if you are a "these are the exact 2D location/positions you HAVE TO be in at point A, B, or C" teacher, you would have answered this question the same way that HANK HANEY and JIMMY BALLARD did when i asked them back in 1998 or 2000 in New Orleans at the PGA T&C Summit:

"If Jim Furyk had come to you in August, the year he breezed through Tour school, and striped every shot with that big loop, would you have changed him?"

They both said—without a second of reflection or hesitation—YES!!

Wrong answer, huh?

• There are folks who think you can trace a line on the ground with their right forearm. On 2D stills, or stills of 2D video, and in person, it sure looks possible.

On 3D, which can measure to the centimeter these sorts of things, THERE IS NO CHANCE OF DOING THIS in a real swing.
 
I use video rarely, and try to draw lines even more rarely (thanks to this forum).

However, do you think a high speed camera placed directly over the ball looking straight down would be able to give some useful information on what the club was doing through impact? It would be easier to ensure consistent camera placement, and should be able to show some aspects of the d-plane (horizontal path, clubface angle, horizontal initial trajectory, etc...).

In the absence of a Trackman, I think that it might be useful to convince students that they may need the club to swing more left in order to hit a straight shot, for example.

Thoughts?
 
But what do you really feel about line drawing, Brian....?

:rolleyes:

How long before technology allows us to measure the things that matter - D plane alignments - at a price that is acceptable for most pros. A machine will be needed before it becomes widespread because most teachers do not have Brian's experience to implement changes to d -plane alignments.

Imagine if your average golfer goes to their average pro (who has just heard of D-plane and wants to give it a go in their teaching)...The pro does not understand the concept well enough, can't objectively measure the alignments to demonstrate the requirements or changes to the student...and the student doesn't get a single line drawn (ie. does not receive what they expect from a lesson)...unless they can teach and improve the student straight away then the student is going to think that they have been sold some emporor's new clothes style stuff...

Technology dragged us into the line drawing era and technology will lead us away...

Is there some mini-trackman device that just does the clubhead/face alignment/ AoA etc and ignores the ball flight??? That would be a start - no? You can at least see the ball flight yourself and see where it lands...it is impact and pre-impact data that seems important IMO to allow Joe Pro and Steve Student to get into D-plane...
 
I use video rarely, and try to draw lines even more rarely (thanks to this forum).

However, do you think a high speed camera placed directly over the ball looking straight down would be able to give some useful information on what the club was doing through impact? It would be easier to ensure consistent camera placement, and should be able to show some aspects of the d-plane (horizontal path, clubface angle, horizontal initial trajectory, etc...).

In the absence of a Trackman, I think that it might be useful to convince students that they may need the club to swing more left in order to hit a straight shot, for example.

Thoughts?

That is the kind of idea I was getting at but even casios (cheap enough) are not quite good enough to make it obvious IMO...maybe 2 casios - 1 above and 1 at side ...linked to some software could calculate the alignments?
 

ZAP

New
Guess I better start planting the seed that I want to make a pilgrimage to Louisville next year as my 40th birthday present. My wife will be thrilled.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
But what do you really feel about line drawing, Brian....?

:rolleyes:

How long before technology allows us to measure the things that matter - D plane alignments - at a price that is acceptable for most pros. A machine will be needed before it becomes widespread because most teachers do not have Brian's experience to implement changes to d -plane alignments.

Imagine if your average golfer goes to their average pro (who has just heard of D-plane and wants to give it a go in their teaching)...The pro does not understand the concept well enough, can't objectively measure the alignments to demonstrate the requirements or changes to the student...and the student doesn't get a single line drawn (ie. does not receive what they expect from a lesson)...unless they can teach and improve the student straight away then the student is going to think that they have been sold some emporor's new clothes style stuff...

Technology dragged us into the line drawing era and technology will lead us away...

Is there some mini-trackman device that just does the clubhead/face alignment/ AoA etc and ignores the ball flight??? That would be a start - no? You can at least see the ball flight yourself and see where it lands...it is impact and pre-impact data that seems important IMO to allow Joe Pro and Steve Student to get into D-plane...

i have a really good response to this but i have the flu, am exhausted, been moving my mom and ready to collapse BUT i will response at some point.
 
• And, if you are a "these are the exact 2D location/positions you HAVE TO be in at point A, B, or C" teacher, you would have answered this question the same way that HANK HANEY and JIMMY BALLARD did when i asked them back in 1998 or 2000 in New Orleans at the PGA T&C Summit:

"If Jim Furyk had come to you in August, the year he breezed through Tour school, and striped every shot with that big loop, would you have changed him?"

They both said—without a second of reflection or hesitation—YES!!

Wrong answer, huh?

Yes, I would say wrong answer. Did those guys really say that?
 
• I had guys who could SPLIT THE MIDDLE of any line you could draw from release point to the swivel.

We KNEW from using video that the faces were DEAD SQUARE on some of the shots, because even at 30fps, and 1/2000th of a second shutter speed, you would get lucky every now and then and catch impact or separation.

But, the golfers hit the ball left with short irons.

It was the D-plane. Homer Kelley, Mac O'Grady, Seymour Dunn, or whoever, could draw lines, but were missing the most important two, the top and bottom vectors of the D-Plane.

Of course, you can't see those in ANY 2D video. And you never will.

• Homer Kelley also talked about hinge action, the 6 degree 3D machines have proven that "horizontal hinging" is a complete myth. On video you would swear...

• You also see folks drawing dots for body CoG's and trust me folks, the guys who work with 3D, and don't have a horse in the race, think this is a joke as well. You just can't tell unless you had multiple ultra-high speed cameras, and good CAD programs.

Man o'Man, just buy an AMM machine if you want to REALLY KNOW. Or a force plate system.

• You can NOT see the kinetic chain on video worth a shat.

• When you teach on TrackMan, you see the complete JOKE that video, or really, any ARBITRARY golf positions are. If you can get golfers to fix their D-Plane, you see if they can putt.

• For the folks who say:

"When I draw lines, and the student gets closer, they hit it better."

I'd say this:

When I get golfers closer to zeros on TrackMan, they hit it RIGHT AT THE HOLE!

• Line Drawing CAN HELP some folks, but it can LIE and make you change things "just because."

• The problem I have is when folks try to show how upright, and how flat backswing are—at any place in the swing—with ALL KINDS OF PARALLAX!!!

For instance, two golfers who LOOK TO THE WHOLE WORLD on a 2D still that they are both have the club at parallel at the top.

Golfer one has long arms, Golfer two, short.

Golfer one has a lot of wristcock, and is 5 foot 8.

Golfer two has very little wristcock, and is 6 foot 2.

Let's say that the person shooting the video, or taking the stills, stood in the EXACT SAME PLACE relative to the golfers.

And, let's say that they swung the club to the top on the EXACT same plane. I don't care which one, pick your reference point.

Golfer #1 will look flatter than #2, his hands will be closer to the camera, he will look more bent over, etc., etc., etc.

It has held GOLF back, and made a lot of folks trying to make their points, use a lot of 2D pictures.

• If you have enough photos, and before Katrina I had so many you wouldn't believe it, you could cut up 100's of photos to make any one method look like it was 100% correct.

• And, if you are a "these are the exact 2D location/positions you HAVE TO be in at point A, B, or C" teacher, you would have answered this question the same way that HANK HANEY and JIMMY BALLARD did when i asked them back in 1998 or 2000 in New Orleans at the PGA T&C Summit:

"If Jim Furyk had come to you in August, the year he breezed through Tour school, and striped every shot with that big loop, would you have changed him?"

They both said—without a second of reflection or hesitation—YES!!

Wrong answer, huh?

• There are folks who think you can trace a line on the ground with their right forearm. On 2D stills, or stills of 2D video, and in person, it sure looks possible.

On 3D, which can measure to the centimeter these sorts of things, THERE IS NO CHANCE OF DOING THIS in a real swing.

Was this list longer before? 25 points? (maybe you trimmed it down)

That of course is your choice. (I've been known to do it)

There were more things I had questions on...(I think!)

Coulda sworn I can see the pivot stop on video...

??

:)
 
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