I have noticed one thing that seems all his students have in common. At the top of thier swing it looks like the left shoulder is under the chin, and turned at least 90 degrees. But the right shoulder does not seem to turn as much. And not just a small difference but one that can be easily seen. Left shoulder 90 degrees, right shoulder about 60 degrees. Is this something he teaches? Or is it a result of something else he teaches? Can be seen very well on Ben Fox's swing.
Brady Riggs students
- Thread starter spuds64
- Start date
- Status
jeffy
Banned
I just took a look at the Ben Fox and Anthony Kim sequences on Riggs' site (both are star pupils of his) and have a couple of observations. First, a golfer's degree of shoulder turn is in fact the combination of the shoulder turn around the spine AND the hip turn. For most players, I've been told that 45 degrees of pure shoulder turn is about the max, though Fox and Kim, being young and flexible, may well exceed that. Second, in looking at the Fox and Kim sequences, the most important thing to observe is that both have relatively little hip turn, a function of the right knee remaining flexed and not moving AT ALL away from the target line throughout the backswing. That, I believe, is the primary reason for their short shoulder turn, which I don't think is even 90 degrees: a line through the shoulders points to the ball, not the center of the stance.
As for one shoulder turning meaningfully more than the other, that sounds impossible, despite what the pictures appear to show. As far as I know, there are no joints that permit independent movement of the shoulders relative to the spine. Anyone with medical training feel free to chime in.
Jeff
As for one shoulder turning meaningfully more than the other, that sounds impossible, despite what the pictures appear to show. As far as I know, there are no joints that permit independent movement of the shoulders relative to the spine. Anyone with medical training feel free to chime in.
Jeff
Jeffy Quote:"As for one shoulder turning meaningfully more than the other, that sounds impossible, despite what the pictures appear to show. As far as I know, there are no joints that permit independent movement of the shoulders relative to the spine. Anyone with medical training feel free to chime in."
That is exactly what the clavicles are able to do. Each can act independently and they do have a significant affect on the number of degrees of "shoulder turn". Take it to the top and then let your arms and hands hang to the side of your body and you will see the affect of zeroing out clavicle motion in the "shoulder turn". And also why, if you lay a club behind your neck and across your shoulders and turn so that the club/shoulder turn is 90 degrees- you have completely over rotated.
I didn't look at the players that you were noting- so I'm not making any judgement on their movements- just following up your question with the answer that the shoulders can and do move independently of each other.
And it is a very interesting area of movement study- that is the standards used in measuring movement. Does the left shoulder go up or down on the back swing? Down in relation to the ground (external standard) and Up in relation to the body (head - "internal standard"). Anotherwords, on the backswing the left shoulder joint- at the end of the clavicle- adducts (comes across the chest) and elevates (rises in relation to the body). And typically the first half of the backswing is more adduction than elevation, and the second half is more elevation than adduction- hence the common single shift on the backstroke.
Mike O
That is exactly what the clavicles are able to do. Each can act independently and they do have a significant affect on the number of degrees of "shoulder turn". Take it to the top and then let your arms and hands hang to the side of your body and you will see the affect of zeroing out clavicle motion in the "shoulder turn". And also why, if you lay a club behind your neck and across your shoulders and turn so that the club/shoulder turn is 90 degrees- you have completely over rotated.
I didn't look at the players that you were noting- so I'm not making any judgement on their movements- just following up your question with the answer that the shoulders can and do move independently of each other.
And it is a very interesting area of movement study- that is the standards used in measuring movement. Does the left shoulder go up or down on the back swing? Down in relation to the ground (external standard) and Up in relation to the body (head - "internal standard"). Anotherwords, on the backswing the left shoulder joint- at the end of the clavicle- adducts (comes across the chest) and elevates (rises in relation to the body). And typically the first half of the backswing is more adduction than elevation, and the second half is more elevation than adduction- hence the common single shift on the backstroke.
Mike O
I believe I meant can easily be seen on Anthony Kim's swing, is not as pronounced in Ben Fox's swing. I have notice one other rcommon denominator in most of Regoat's students swings. It seems they are able to avoid lifting up and out of thier spine angle when moving to the top of swing. This is some thing I do, and wonder how to avoid it. Is it cause by the arms lifting too much nearing top of the swing.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
lifting out of your spine angle is usually the result of a poor backswing pivot.
Good be:
reverse pivot
very steep shoulder turn
bad SETUP that creates the 2 above
etc
Good be:
reverse pivot
very steep shoulder turn
bad SETUP that creates the 2 above
etc
Redgoat
New
Spuds,
I would rather have a player getting lower as they approach the top of the swing, not higher. Like so many things in the golf swing, if you exaggerate something in set up you will do the opposite during the backswing. A good example of this is starting excessively flexed in the knees, weight in the heels and too much bend at the waist. To find balance, the player will move weight towards the toes, straighten both legs a little and decrease the space they created from the ball at address.
If this is the problem in your case, try to increase the amount of flex in your knees going to the top. I like to say you need to put your a** on the grass at the top. This will make you feel you can use the ground for leverage on the downswing much like a rebounder ready to jump would. A great example of this can be seen with Tiger, and Ben Fox for that matter.
Check out the Inpractis website for a short video on the tush line as it may help you get the idea.
Redgoat
I would rather have a player getting lower as they approach the top of the swing, not higher. Like so many things in the golf swing, if you exaggerate something in set up you will do the opposite during the backswing. A good example of this is starting excessively flexed in the knees, weight in the heels and too much bend at the waist. To find balance, the player will move weight towards the toes, straighten both legs a little and decrease the space they created from the ball at address.
If this is the problem in your case, try to increase the amount of flex in your knees going to the top. I like to say you need to put your a** on the grass at the top. This will make you feel you can use the ground for leverage on the downswing much like a rebounder ready to jump would. A great example of this can be seen with Tiger, and Ben Fox for that matter.
Check out the Inpractis website for a short video on the tush line as it may help you get the idea.
Redgoat
Brady~
The Tips article photo seems to indicate for Fox what spuds64 is reporting. However, since the Fox "top" is different than the player who has a weight shift to the right, the shoulders could be in a "transiition" position. I tried to retrieve the Clarke clip for comparison but couldn't find it.
DRW
Redgoat
New
DOCW3,
The Clarke clip is on the inpractis web site under "rear view". You have to login to see it as it is an old tip of the week. Just an email address is all you need. Let me know what you think.
http://www.inpractis.com/tech-golftips.php
Brady
The Clarke clip is on the inpractis web site under "rear view". You have to login to see it as it is an old tip of the week. Just an email address is all you need. Let me know what you think.
http://www.inpractis.com/tech-golftips.php
Brady
swingeasttowest
New
Nice site Red.............
I have not been able to receive the confirming e-mail authorizing access to the site. The DC swing sequence at his site was reviewed and for whatever the reason I can again access your Redgoat site. DC's full shoulder turn indicates a restriction is not characteristic of the instruction. MY assessment based primarily on the elbow and left hip position is that BF has started the rotation back in your Tips "top" photo.
BTW, (1)who should be credited with this stroke pattern and (2) as I move between frames 3 and 4 of the DC sequence , at the end of the rotation when the left hip "gains" on the target there a move of the left knee toward the target line and a lowering of the head. From my measurements, this sequence is repeated by Fox.
DRW
- Status