BRIAN - Double Cocking
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mgjordan
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You double cock by double cocking. There really is no way to explain it. You just cock the right wrist. It will cup the left wrist and that is bad. Double cocking, like Sergio and Hogan, is a no-no that you don't want to incorporate. It will give you more lag, but the cost is too great.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
MikeSTLOC never double-cocks and had as much delay as anyone.
birdie_man
New
Listen to what you just said: "Double cocking, like Sergio and Hogan, is a no-no that you don't want to incorporate."
Now I'm no expert, but that just doesn't make sense to me. They made it work alright. As do Daly (I think) and Freddie and now Vijay.
...and Hogan had a flat left wrist before going to doublecocked wrists. He obviously had have thought there was something to it.
I'm only guessing but maybe flat left wrists are better for the majority of golfers? (for simplicity and to rule out a slice a little more maybe?).
Now I'm no expert, but that just doesn't make sense to me. They made it work alright. As do Daly (I think) and Freddie and now Vijay.
...and Hogan had a flat left wrist before going to doublecocked wrists. He obviously had have thought there was something to it.
I'm only guessing but maybe flat left wrists are better for the majority of golfers? (for simplicity and to rule out a slice a little more maybe?).
mgjordan
New
I know what I said and I stand by it. You want a flat left wrist at impact, so you don't want to have a cupped one most of the downswing. It is a compensation that is destructive and unnecessary. The pros you mention are just that...pros. They have done it that way since they were 10 years old and they hit balls for several hours every day. They make it work for them. For the normal golfer, it doesn't make sense. The pros who do it probably aren't even aware that they do it. Homer says right in TGM that you don't want to cock the right wrist. It definantly IS an OPTION, but I wouldn't recommend it for the simple reason that golf is an alignment game and the flat left wrist is THE ultimate alignment...why screw around with it? However, if you want to do it, "Fly at it" as Homer would say.
birdie_man
New
OK...well put. I agree with that...the first time you didn't mention that it's an option though; you just said it's a "no-no."
Hogan did not always do it, nor did Vijay. Obviously they must have found some merit in it for them to switch.
I personally don't like a FLAT wrist...not flat like a board or like a wall or like a table. I can hit wedges like that but not long clubs...wild hooks. Pitch shots go too low too. I'd say my wrist is more like Els (and I don't play with a strong grip either).
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hey Birdie...ever heard of Lee Buck Trevino?
birdie_man
New
Hell yes. What about Mr. Buck Trevino?
Yes- his wrist was flat...like a board/wall/table (actually I should say arched...). Obviously worked awesome for him, but it's not for me.
I'm not saying double-cocking is the best way to do it either...just saying there have been great ballstrikers who have done it.
Yes- his wrist was flat...like a board/wall/table (actually I should say arched...). Obviously worked awesome for him, but it's not for me.
I'm not saying double-cocking is the best way to do it either...just saying there have been great ballstrikers who have done it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Nothing wrong with double-cocking...if you can re-flatten it.
Mr. Kelley's opinion (from his Notes):
"Double Wrist Cock - The bending of the Left Wrist at the top of the stroke in addition to the Wristcock. The bending of the Left Wrist puts the clubface in an 'open' position. But, if the same Bent position is taken at Impact Fix it is very 'closed'. From this Top position the Wrists would have to be Turning - rotating clockwise - during the Downstroke to achieve the correct clubface alignment. This is the exact opposite of what should be happening, and produces the exact opposite result. Disaster!"
"Double Wrist Cock - The bending of the Left Wrist at the top of the stroke in addition to the Wristcock. The bending of the Left Wrist puts the clubface in an 'open' position. But, if the same Bent position is taken at Impact Fix it is very 'closed'. From this Top position the Wrists would have to be Turning - rotating clockwise - during the Downstroke to achieve the correct clubface alignment. This is the exact opposite of what should be happening, and produces the exact opposite result. Disaster!"
and there is nothing wrong with bending the left wrist - if this is what is required to keep the essential alignment of the flat left wrist (sometimes flat isn't what it seems) which is the left flying wedge with no horizontal motion... you won't be using the precision single action grip of 10-2-B though.... (take note of the word single action)
birdie_man
New
Whattt??? How would that be 'closed'?? I'd think it would be open...and if you rotated that clockwise you'd hit the hugest slices ever...I don't get how bending or double-cocking your wrist could be 'closed'.
birdie_man
New
Ah icic...I had to grab a club to figure that out. I was thinking of "bent at impact fix" as "doublecocking at impact fix" I guess...that just doesn't work though.
birdie_man
New
I just re-read this in the archives...now that I know more I must say that I like a flat left wrist at the top. Only with a neutral to fairly weak grip tho ('Manzella Neutral' I guess or Strong Single Action/WSA)...still can't understand Duval and Rich Beem with those strong grips/flat wrists.
This brings me to another question tho...what about cocking the left wrist slightly for a higher ballflight occasionally (if needed for that aprticular shot, I mean)? I've been wondering about this for a while now.
It seems that I can use the same grip and then kind of cock my wrists just slightly...it's kind of halfway in between the standard (I guess it's standard- or preferred anyway) bent right/flat left and double-cocked. When I do it this way my left wrist cocks so there are wrinkles at the top of my left wrist (if you are doing a 'thumbs up' with the left hand). Hope you understand.
Anyway I still get a basically flat left wrist at the top (not AS flat as with the standard bent right/flat left- very small difference...there still is no real cup tho).
I'm still screwing around kinda but I find that it gives me an impact where the shaft is more in line with my left arm (hands are not as far ahead, as in Brian's logo)...like I said this is for special apps. and only for a forward ball position.
I definately get a higher ball flight when I need it but I was wondering if there was another way to do it...normal swing and just open the clubface maybe?
What do you recommend to hit the high ball Brian?
This brings me to another question tho...what about cocking the left wrist slightly for a higher ballflight occasionally (if needed for that aprticular shot, I mean)? I've been wondering about this for a while now.
It seems that I can use the same grip and then kind of cock my wrists just slightly...it's kind of halfway in between the standard (I guess it's standard- or preferred anyway) bent right/flat left and double-cocked. When I do it this way my left wrist cocks so there are wrinkles at the top of my left wrist (if you are doing a 'thumbs up' with the left hand). Hope you understand.
Anyway I still get a basically flat left wrist at the top (not AS flat as with the standard bent right/flat left- very small difference...there still is no real cup tho).
I'm still screwing around kinda but I find that it gives me an impact where the shaft is more in line with my left arm (hands are not as far ahead, as in Brian's logo)...like I said this is for special apps. and only for a forward ball position.
I definately get a higher ball flight when I need it but I was wondering if there was another way to do it...normal swing and just open the clubface maybe?
What do you recommend to hit the high ball Brian?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
They angle hinge, so they don't have to worry about the big shut face. I think that's why duval is having so many issues (besides a lack of motivation imo) is that he's trying to get swinging with a horizontal hinge and he's just not.
For short game stuff, it works well. Because you just time the flip. Great out of bunkers too. However it becomes hard to judge/repeat with a full swing. Instead of throwing in this variable, simply open your stance line a little and learn how to angle hinge. You'll get the higher ball flight your after
You could do that, square stance and open the face in your hands. Or as i prefer, leave the face at the target and just open your stance.
birdie_man
New
I still swing down the target line right (just open foot line)? How would I get this angled hinge Jim?...just hold the face perp. to the inclined plane, still tracing a straight plane line?
Does Brian talk about this in Never Hook Again? or any other videos you know of?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Yes...you leave the face looking at the target. And just simply open your stance (feet, hips, shoulders, everything) or you can keep your stance square and simply open the face and then take your grip. I am more comfortable with the opening of the stance method. Then you just take it back on your new stance line.
Regarding the angled hinge, are you a swinger or a hitter? If you're a swinger, you produce the angled hinge you have to "hold off" the closing of the face that centrifugal force wants to do. If you're a hitter, you should already be producing an angled hinge.
Regarding the angled hinge, are you a swinger or a hitter? If you're a swinger, you produce the angled hinge you have to "hold off" the closing of the face that centrifugal force wants to do. If you're a hitter, you should already be producing an angled hinge.
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