Brian Manzella vs. a NON-debater

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
The following debate is between your host, Brian Manzella:D and David Alford.

No other posters please!

The first point up for debate is the "level" shoulder turn...

David Alford's take...in 50 words or less....is....
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
David Alford said:
The shoulder turn is overrated.

I (BM) would think by that statement you would want me to agree or disagree.

Brian Manzella (me) says:
The motion---force and direction---that the shoulder make in the golf swing is VERY UNDERrated.

WHY is it underrated?
Becuase 'conventional' golf "wisdom" tells golfer to rotate their shoulders on the same plane on the backswing and the downswing and that IS exactly what many of them do. Incorrectly.

The shoulders should guide and power the arms/hands/club unit to and through imapct and that can ONLY be done optimally with the right shoulder traveling 'down plane' on the downstroke.

This down plane motion is nearly the opposite of the "high right shoulder" theory that was prevelant thoughout the early and mid 90's and still exist somewhat today.

No top player has ever had as HIGH a right shoulder as recommended by many of the 'name' instructors.

Becuase of the DRASTIC difference in the CORRECT shoulder motion of the CHAMPION golfers and the much different idea in the heads of most golfers and teachers....I say the the 'shoulder turn' is UNDERrated.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
David Alford
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 16:24:22

We're on the same wavelength regarding your technical comments.

If a peron has errors in their shoulder turn, they better rate it high on their priority as something to work on.

I said the shoulder turn is over rated, because in some swing models you don't need a full shoulder turn to hit the ball hard. I mean really hard. Moe Norman hits the ball pretty darn hard with minimal shoulder turn and I believe I can hit even harder than Moe with a swing that also uses minimal shoulder turn and the ball goes straight every time. When I get back from my trip, I'll be glad to show this swing and you can see how much power is generated with comparatively minimal shoulder turn. In other swing models, I turn the shoulder in excess of 90 degrees, but I really don't get any more clubhead speed than the shoulder limited model.

David Alford
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
quote:

David Alford
Posted - 08/02/2004 : 16:24:22

We're on the same wavelength regarding your technical comments.

If a person has errors in their shoulder turn, they better rate it high on their priority as something to work on.
Click to expand...

POINT FOR MANZELLA
MANZELLA=1.....ALFORD=0

quote:I said the shoulder turn is over rated, because in some swing models you don't need a full shoulder turn to hit the ball hard. I mean really hard.
Click to expand...

THIS IS 'OFF' TOPIC
ZERO POINTS

In my BRIAN MANZELLA swing 'model' as well as Homer Kelley's there is NO REFERENCE to 'amount of backswing shoulder turn only placement of the right shoulder

quote:Moe Norman hits the ball pretty darn hard with minimal shoulder turn and I believe I can hit even harder than Moe with a swing that also uses minimal shoulder turn and the ball goes straight every time. When I get back from my trip, I'll be glad to show this swing and you can see how much power is generated with comparatively minimal shoulder turn. In other swing models, I turn the shoulder in excess of 90 degrees, but I really don't get any more clubhead speed than the shoulder limited model.

David Alford
Click to expand...

No kidding, you don't need a lot of shoulder turn to hit it far. Again David this is off point and is EXACTLY what I teach. Read a little.

PENALTY half POINT DEDUCTED FOR ALFORD REPEATEDLY BEING OFF POINT:
SCORE: MANZELLA 1....ALFORD:-.50

Just a reminder...the original topic was about flat shoulder turn.

You are losing Mr. Alford.

Your turn.

Hint: Ask me to answer a question or comment and then comment on my response.....
 
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David Alford

New
Brian, you made me laugh. You got 100% contol like this over your ball striking?
Common' now, relax, I'm not your enemy. I'd probably risk my life to save you if we
were in a mutual disaster of some sort. You think about that.

Sorry, but I have that plane to catch.

David Alford
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
David...pal-o-mine....

You ruthlessly debated FRIENDS of mine without making any real points.

That's why I am debating you here.

You are starting off REALLY poorly.

You first point was that 'shoulder turn is overrated'...then after my comment to the OPPOSITE SIDE, you told me all the important things about shoulder turn (I know you may have meant BIG shoulder turn is overrated...but you didn't say that).

You are losing to one of the WORLD's BEST debaters ;)

NEXT (debating) POINT: .....is....
 
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David Alford

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Hey Brian can you read? I didn't say the shoulder turn is over rated for the entire universe. Did I? I make a correct shoulder turn and I don't need or desire a huge turn for the way I swing, so for ME it is over rated.

So go work on your shoulder turn if it's that big a deal for you. It's not my problem, it's yours. Or your students, etc. Maybe you ought to teach them a better takeaway if this is such a big issue.

Your logical error, is the error of logical induction when you had only one fact, a non universal fact.

Please do better than this, or I will be bored to tears. [:eek:]

David A.
 
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David Alford

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<You ruthlessly debated FRIENDS of mine without making any real points.>

You're off topic. But, I'll answer. If you go to the Bobby Clampett swing analysis, near the last of the recent posts I summarized 7 points that have not been invalidated by you or your buddies. How could HK mess this up so badly?

1) HK didn't know what the heck BC did in his swing. Turns out HK was NOT BC's teacher.
2) HK was getting senile, alzheimers, etc.
3) HK wasn't always perfect and had an off day. Maybe a week later he would have gotten it right. He might have, if he started over entirely.

Now, to "you ruthlessly debated FRIENDS of mine" - LOL, so now you want to try to squash me into the turf, huh? How transparent. The only way you can to that, Brian, is to delete my posts or kick me off your site for standing up to your BS.

But to do that, you'll have to break your word, already given publicly, that you won't. I don't curse, so you won't have that excuse.

I guess you adpopted that philosophy because other forums have kicked you off their forums. Hmmm, wonder why. Why would they do that to a self described genius? You are the world's best debater, aren't you? You said that didn't you? Didn't you also say you were the world's number 1 original thinker? Must be true then! Why in the heck would they miss out on your wisedom? Must be a bunch of idiots, huh?

So your only option is to try to childlishly control this debate. But then that isn't fair is it? Com'on now, fess up, you knew it wasn't the minute you started your silly scoreboard tallies. Consequently, if you won't debate fairly, I'm going to have to penalize you in kind.

Every time you give your self points, or summarize how much you "think" you are winning this debate, you earn a deduction. Any other misconduct, and you will be similary penalized.
______________________________________________________________________

SO RIGHT NOW, BRIAN, YOU ARE A MINUS -10 for debate misconduct! Bad forum, Brian! Oops! I meant bad FORM! LOL. AND THAT'S NOT 10 UNDER PAR, BUD. SNAP OUT OF IT OR IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE!
______________________________________________________________________

Now, you're asking yourself "Why'd Dave give me -10, how did he arrive at that number?".

Well, who cares. There aren't any reasonable rules here. Why don't we make it -13? Yeah, I like that better.

OK, BRIAN, YOU ARE NOW -13 AND WAY BEHIND! Oh heck, forgot to add sales tax. IT'S -15 AND CLIMBING.

YOU HAPPY NOW? :D

David A.
 
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David Alford

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Stop the presses! You conservatively said you are one of "the WORLD'S BEST DEBATERS", not the very best! I guess you are in the top ten. But, then,

"I, Brian Manzella, am-----if I am NOTHING ELSE----an original thinker."

WOW! You have impressed all of us. That is indeed, very original!

"I, Brian Manzella, am-----if I am NOTHING ELSE----an original thinker."
"I, Brian Manzella, am-----if I am NOTHING ELSE----an original thinker."
"I, Brian Manzella, am-----if I am NOTHING ELSE----an original thinker."

Everybody get that? If not, be patient, one or more versions no doubt be repeated. Until it sinks in, you know. [xx(]

David A.
 
Michael Finney

Michael Finney

New
david, david, david,,,,,

you're OFF TOPIC!!!!....please at least attempt to debate the issue before you......

and as far as you getting blocked from the forum, what fun would that be???......with you being the source of such non-stop entertainment...keep em coming, david.....your posts are becoming legendary around here
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
quote:by David Alford

Hey Brian can you read? I didn't say the shoulder turn is over rated for the entire universe. Did I?
Click to expand...

No you didn't Dave. You were given the opportunity to post a 50 word statement on what YOU thought of a "Flat Shoulder Turn."

Your OFFICIAL response for the debate was:

I THINK THE SHOULDER TURN IS OVER RATED.

I disagreed, made my points and you responded by in agreement with my points.

So...Dave...I can read very well and you said simply: I THINK THE SHOULDER TURN IS OVER RATED.


quote:by David Alford
I make a correct shoulder turn and I don't need or desire a huge turn for the way I swing, so for ME it is over rated.
Click to expand...

Good for you. I don't, nor does anyone else, need one either.

quote:by David Alford
So go work on your shoulder turn if it's that big a deal for you. It's not my problem, it's yours. Or your students, etc. Maybe you ought to teach them a better takeaway if this is such a big issue.
Click to expand...

Poor David. You are such a poor debater you are saying things like the above.

I don't have any problem with my shoulder turn, nor have I ever said anything like this. My students are NEVER easked to make huge shoulder turns since this has NOTHING to do with being a good ball striker.

My students takeaways are fine, but this is VERY off topic.

quote:by David Alford
Please do better than this, or I will be bored to tears.
Click to expand...

Give me something to debate and I'll be less boring.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
quote:by David Alford
Brian Manzella said:
"You ruthlessly debated FRIENDS of mine without making any real points."

You're off topic. But, I'll answer. If you go to the Bobby Clampett swing analysis, near the last of the recent posts I summarized 7 points that have not been invalidated by you or your buddies. How could HK mess this up so badly?

1) HK didn't know what the heck BC did in his swing. Turns out HK was NOT BC's teacher.
Click to expand...

No kidding...really...you don't say???

Come on David. Long before I ever worked with Ben, me and 10,000,000 other golfers knew Ben Doyle was Bobby Clampetts teacher. Where were you, under a rock?

quote:by David Alford
2) HK was getting senile, alzheimers, etc.
Click to expand...

I have listened to audio of Homer within one year of his death, which was shortly after he wrote the article you rip. He was a brilliant man, quick with a quip and light years ahead of anyone in golf swing land.

quote:by David Alford
Now, to "you ruthlessly debated FRIENDS of mine" - LOL, so now you want to try to squash me into the turf, huh? How transparent. The only way you can to that, Brian, is to delete my posts or kick me off your site for standing up to your BS.
Click to expand...

David...if you throw punches, people will throw back. You 'debated' others on this forum while I was on vacation and I wanted a piece of you.

Too bad you are NO MATCH for me. You can stay on my site and make a fool of yourself as long as you like, but I really want you to actually DEBATE ME about the golf swing, so I can beat you as I smarten you up. ;)
 
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David Alford

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Mikestoloc, didn't you read Brian's instructions? He specifically asked no one else post here. Can't you read either? Brian has to take his own swings. You are instructed to get behind the ropes and rejoin the gallery. Further rule violations may result in your player being disqualified.

David A. [8D]
 
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David Alford

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Hey, Mike have you ever had a course in logic? The statement, "I think the shoulder turn is over rated" is valid.

You might say "I think the shoulder turn is not over rated". That also can be a valid statement. It is AN OPINION based on our own perspectives.

I think grapefruit is over rated. Oranges are better.

You don't have anything to argue with. You can give an opinion back, but
neither can be logically invalidated since they arise from the our own perspectives.

Narrowing the focus here a little, I don't like an active shoulder turn. I prefer to emphasize what causes the shoulder to turn. There is a difference.

For me, emphasizing or even thinking about a shoulder turn is actually counter productive (in certain swing models). Make sense?

I think the shoulder turn is over rated. A valid statement.

David Alford
 
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David Alford

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Re: the three possiblities why HK messed up the Bobby Clampett analysis, I can't believe you took those seriously. It's called sarcasm (in response to your own - see previous post).

Relax or you may get an ulcer.

David A.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
David mikestloc is a moderator...he can post in this thread all he wants, as long as he---like he did---stay out of the debate.

My problem is YOU are staying out of the debate.

I will try once more.

Here is my statement:

Trigger Delay/Late release (accumulator LAG) does NOT make for inaccurate shots,
anymore than early release or mid-way release.

Your turn:
 
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David Alford

New
Re: Mike Stoloc, you can have a conversation with him, then. I don't like it when you set rules and then bend them to suit your purposes.

The game ended early, but according to the scoreboard, the home team lost on their own field.

Sorry, I gotta' get on with vacation stuff. Maybe later if you learn to play fair.

David Alford
 
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