tallathlete
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What do you feel is/are the reasons for a really good players pivot to stall...which then leads to swinging out too much and a little too soft of a right wrist through impact? Further, what would be the fix?
Brian...Pivot stall question....
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Kevin Shields
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I have my own opinion but will look forward to hearing Brians
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SteveT
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Stalling anywhere within the golfswing can be attributed to a change of thinking ... going from non-conscious to conscious thinking state and then attempting to return to a non-conscious automatic mode.
Anytime you inject a conscious swing thought into the golfswing, you will change the neuro-muscular kinetic flow that works best in a non-conscious, automatic mode. The brain works best in a series state during a complex series of movements, and not attempting to perform parallel multi-tasking that just confuses things.
Thinking consciously anywhere throughout the golfswing, particularly the downswing, sabotages the kinetic chain ... believe it.
The fix? Modern swing instructors like BManz are best qualified to provide a solution to your swing problem.
Anytime you inject a conscious swing thought into the golfswing, you will change the neuro-muscular kinetic flow that works best in a non-conscious, automatic mode. The brain works best in a series state during a complex series of movements, and not attempting to perform parallel multi-tasking that just confuses things.
Thinking consciously anywhere throughout the golfswing, particularly the downswing, sabotages the kinetic chain ... believe it.
The fix? Modern swing instructors like BManz are best qualified to provide a solution to your swing problem.
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tallathlete
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Kevin, I am very interested in your opinion. Please opine away....
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Obviously it depends on the player but some ive seen are..... open face, outward hand path, poor ball position, fear/steering, underplane, left arm plane too low, pivot too stretched at the top, over acceleration, too much weight left too soon in the downswing, too much arm travel in the backswing, early axis tilt
Basically you either over use your pivot too soon to make up for a poor sequence/position and you have nothing left or you have to stall to hit it because of open face/steering/poor hand path
Basically you either over use your pivot too soon to make up for a poor sequence/position and you have nothing left or you have to stall to hit it because of open face/steering/poor hand path
SteveT: Do you have any book recommendations about how to maintain a mindset during the swing that helps establish and maintain a non-conscious, automatic mode during the down swing? How do you do it it?
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SteveT
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WOW!!! ... I posted that comment long time ago and you're the first person to question me on it...!!!!
Let me relate an anecdotal story about my mindset. Many years ago when I was heavily delving into the science of the golfswing, my golf buddies would always ask me how I could remember all that scientific sh!t while swinging.
I told them I didn't think about all that technical crap when I was playing and I was fully enjoying myself on the golf course ... I just went with what I got and grind through.
I played with what I got after a hell of a lot of practice, which payed off to the point where I could play a decent game of recreational golf and enjoyed my game and accomplishments. To further elevate my game would have required a massive amount of practice so I just stabilized my game.
IOW, if you have no confidence in your golfswing, or you fall into yourself when your swing craps out, you just haven't practiced enough .. and then your mindset isn't worth squat. If you think you can find a way to think during your golfswing to instantly improve or sustain what you could do on the driving range, you just don't understand athletic golf. If you believe there is a 'golf tip' somewhere that will instantly improve your mindset and swing, you are deluding.
To test yourself, play a round of golf with an "I don't care attitude" and just wallop the ball. See what you got. Do not attempt to think your way out of your mess, just blank your mind and let 'er rip. If you haven't practiced enough, you will quickly realize that a lot more practice is necessary. If you don't have time to practice (daily), sign up for a lesson with BManz, and he will explain what you need to do.
Ratio of practice: play ??? How about 100:1 ....
This conscious thought/non conscious thought argument is interesting.
The non conscious thought idea is probably exemplified by Annika Sorenstam's think box/play box method. She wanted to get rid of all mechanical thoughts when she hit the ball.
On the other hand there are top professionals who clearly employ mechanical swing thoughts to make them play well and do so when they are in the hunt. You just have to look at the greatest player of them all, Jack Nicklaus. He has stated that in the heat of battle, on the tee on a Sunday, he would think of finishing his backswing. That is a mechanical swing thought. Nicklaus would also consciously putt in to out, square to square or out to in, depending on type of greens he was playing. Obviously he was very conscious of mechanics in those situations.
I think that just as there is not one swing method which applies to everyone, there is not one way of thinking about the game which is optimum for everyone.
The reality is there is probably a Manzella matrix of mental approaches employed by the best players in the world. To assert there is only one way to approach the game mentally and play well is to become the Leadbetter of the mental game.
The non conscious thought idea is probably exemplified by Annika Sorenstam's think box/play box method. She wanted to get rid of all mechanical thoughts when she hit the ball.
On the other hand there are top professionals who clearly employ mechanical swing thoughts to make them play well and do so when they are in the hunt. You just have to look at the greatest player of them all, Jack Nicklaus. He has stated that in the heat of battle, on the tee on a Sunday, he would think of finishing his backswing. That is a mechanical swing thought. Nicklaus would also consciously putt in to out, square to square or out to in, depending on type of greens he was playing. Obviously he was very conscious of mechanics in those situations.
I think that just as there is not one swing method which applies to everyone, there is not one way of thinking about the game which is optimum for everyone.
The reality is there is probably a Manzella matrix of mental approaches employed by the best players in the world. To assert there is only one way to approach the game mentally and play well is to become the Leadbetter of the mental game.
...Ratio of practice: play ??? How about 100:1 ....
In terms of repetition in order to groove a motion so that it becomes automatic, I can see this. But isn't there also a danger of creating a habit of focusing on the details you're trying to work on?
I ask because there are individuals who focus less on the details of the swing when they're thinking of getting the ball in the hole. For them, too much practice compared to play grooves practice thoughts that they take to the course; playing more than practicing on the range achieves the unconscious swinging you're referring to.
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SteveT
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I think Nicklaus or any tour pro, doesn't inject a swing thought in the middle of his downswing ... and even if he attempts to think about "finishing his backswing", I suspect it's more of a "feeling" rather than a "thought.
Cycling between non-conscious to conscious and then attempting to return to non-conscious is a formula for failure ... believe it.
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SteveT
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It all depends where you are in your golfswing development. If you are just starting and attempting to find a "groove", your practice time should exceed you playing time. You can also practice on the course but only playing solo golf late in the day when the course is open, and playing with multiple balls.
Once you have an established or 'grooved' swing, you may have to refresh it if it's going stale and letting you down. Working on a new swing mechanic can result in a better swing, but you will get worse before you get better so that intense practice is necessary.
Some golfers can go with their established swing forever and never have a bad swing virus invade their brain and body. Everybody is different.
Shot Limit
New
Not sure how accurate this is but....
I heard a story about Bubba Watson on the range hitting ball flights on command from the top. He would make a back swing, get to the top and someone called out "fade" and he would hit a fade. Same thing for draw.
Maybe it's possible for some. These guys are super talented freaks though .
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SteveT
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^^^ Shot Limit .... Sure, Bubba make that adjustment during the backswing, but hackers try to make adjustments during the downswing ... like flattening the lead wrist while approaching Impact.
Downswing swing thoughts are deleterious ....
Downswing swing thoughts are deleterious ....
Not sure how accurate this is but....
I heard a story about Bubba Watson on the range hitting ball flights on command from the top. He would make a back swing, get to the top and someone called out "fade" and he would hit a fade. Same thing for draw.
Maybe it's possible for some. These guys are super talented freaks though .
I've head of people doing drills like this with juniors. I think it's supposed to teach them to be more reactive, worrying more about producing a ballflight than swing mechanics.
I think it would slow your swing down, but wouldn't think that it would be overly difficult for someone who works the ball by feel, manipulating path and face with their hands and arms, rather than someone who dials in their shot shape via their setup. I even tried it on the range with somone, and I'm about as far from golf talent as you can get...
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I agree with this post, especially when you take into consideration the last sentence. Some people are just different in the way they develop.
Shot Limit
New
I'm sure it's different if you know it's coming. Bubba's a natural though; it's kinda hard to relate.
Definitely.
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