Brian's career choices

[wulsy]

Just wondering how Brian got to where he is today.

There must have been at some time a real temptation to just take a club job and blend into the country club lifestyle - cushy number with nice salary and no hassle.

What was it that made you reject this option and pursue the guru status that you now enjoy?

What was the toughest time on the journey to where you now are and how did you overcome the difficulties?

Just genuinely interested...

 

[Kevin Shields]

Im sure he'll answer but I can assure you there was never even the slightest temptation to get a club job and blend in. Interested to know what makes you think there would be a cushy salary and no hassles? The hassles are multiplied by a thousand with a club job.

 

[wulsy]

I'm sure there are guys out there in jobs which, maybe after a few years in the job, with assistants and secretaries are pretty easy money.

I'm also sure that the opposite is more prevelant.

But let's be honest, there are some cushy numbers out there, no? If you're a big-ish name the chances of getting one of the cushy jobs is much higher.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I'm sure there are guys out there in jobs which, maybe after a few years in the job, with assistants and secretaries are pretty easy money.

I'm also sure that the opposite is more prevelant.

But let's be honest, there are some cushy numbers out there, no? If you're a big-ish name the chances of getting one of the cushy jobs is much higher.

Pro's who want to work at a club basically want the top Golf Pro job at a club. So that may be the Head Professional or Director of Golf. Here's the problem....super high demand, very limited supply. It's almost like trying to become a MLB umpire...you almost have to wait for somebody to retire or die to get to that position.

I've known plenty of pros who waited 25 *years* to get that position.

Other than that, typically very small wages out there. What many do is they get an assistants position in the north, then when the course closes down for the winter they collect unemployment and go down to Florida or Arizona and get a job working the bag drop or caddying and get paid under the table.

Not exactly tempting.







3JACK

 

[Brian Manzella]

Quite simply, I just wanted to be the very best at something, make a real difference, and put a big ole dent in the history books.

But you have to pay your car note....

I loved clubfitting and merchandising when I started in the golf biz, but have you ever heard of Leigh Bader?

Club Jobs? You can have 'em. Ever hear of Bob Ford?

Seriously, the story has been told sooooo many times here....

 

[siksta]

I think the Bob Ford call is a bad one the HP at Oakmont and Seminole there's not to many people in the world who wouldn't want that gig and play in3 US Opens, 10 PGA Championships and the only club pro to make a U.S. Open cut since Claude Harmon ya in a heart beat. Its like playing right field for the N.Y. Yankees of course.
I do understand your point Brian you want to help people and make a name but Mr. Ford has made history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Oh....wait a second....

Bob Ford is a legend in the biz, and has had a hall-of-fame club pro career.

But I'm talking Racheal Ray famous with her own TV show here, and I am talking Leadbetter famous in the game....

Get it?

 

[blehnhard]

I was an Asst Pro for 5 years, a Head Professional for 25 years, a Tour Player for 6 years (Sr Tour) and then worked in the golf industry for 10 more years (Softspikes). People ask me all the time if I would want to go back "behind the counter" - not bloody likely is my answer.

Retired and loving it.

Bruce

 

[rogerdodger]

I'm sure there are guys out there in jobs which, maybe after a few years in the job, with assistants and secretaries are pretty easy money.

I'm also sure that the opposite is more prevelant.

But let's be honest, there are some cushy numbers out there, no? If you're a big-ish name the chances of getting one of the cushy jobs is much higher.

I am going to be generalizing but in my opinion, having been a member at private clubs, that head pro is the most difficult, thankless job that exists on the planet. You are entertainment director for spoiled people that treat you like a slave. I once listened to three old members berate a head pro because the rough was too long. When I agreed that the course needed the rought that long to protect scoring before a tournament they told me never to serve on any commitees. Shower a little cold, complaint to pro, porta potty filling up on 12, complain to pro. Plus, set up fun tournements, take care of member's children and make sure that you are at the club at 530 am and leave at 10pm. Hire someone else to teach because you don't have the time. Invest your money to stock the shop and listen to a member brag about the great price he got at golf galaxy on his new set of irons. Career path? Stand outside in the sun on a range fixing every swing that comes to you, perform ground breaking research into the golf swing, tell the best stories anywhere, the question is why would he do anything else?

 

[Richie3Jack]

I am going to be generalizing but in my opinion, having been a member at private clubs, that head pro is the most difficult, thankless job that exists on the planet. You are entertainment director for spoiled people that treat you like a slave. I once listened to three old members berate a head pro because the rough was too long. When I agreed that the course needed the rought that long to protect scoring before a tournament they told me never to serve on any commitees. Shower a little cold, complaint to pro, porta potty filling up on 12, complain to pro. Plus, set up fun tournements, take care of member's children and make sure that you are at the club at 530 am and leave at 10pm. Hire someone else to teach because you don't have the time. Invest your money to stock the shop and listen to a member brag about the great price he got at golf galaxy on his new set of irons. Career path? Stand outside in the sun on a range fixing every swing that comes to you, perform ground breaking research into the golf swing, tell the best stories anywhere, the question is why would he do anything else?

Kinda crazy, but when I was in college and had friends in the PGM programs, I used to tell them pretty much the same thing.

There are some really great Head Pro/Director of Golf jobs out there.

Have a friend in Myrtle Beach who is the Director of Golf and has to work 35 hours a week. But, he gets to schedule those times and of course, he gives himself the best times to work. He'll usually have one day where he works the rush hour, just to give the assistants a break, but mostly he works the easy hours. He also gets a company car and cell phone and makes about $85K a year.

Not bad.

Of course he waited about 15 years to get the job thru working 60-70 hour work weeks for $15K-$25K a year and really lucked into the job (his wife was good friends with the majority owner's wife).

Probably more thankless is the assistant pro because they get all of the complaints as well and they work far more hours and get far less pay. And working at a private club is still wayyyyyyyyyy better than working at a muni or a resort course. I worked those for 7 years of my life. And working at a high end resort/public course could be the worst because most people who pay $150 for a round of golf actually believe that they now own the place for the day.






3JACK

 

[footwedge]

People make choices, no one is forcing them to take an assistant pro club job, there's a lot worse jobs and some have no job at all. I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who complains about it, oh my god! the members are complaining that the rough is too long i feel like quitting, what a rough day...lol. Bunch of crybabies. Go find a real job then.

 

[rogerdodger]

People make choices, no one is forcing them to take an assistant pro club job, there's a lot worse jobs and some have no job at all. I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who complains about it, oh my god! the members are complaining that the rough is too long i feel like quitting, what a rough day...lol. Bunch of crybabies. Go find a real job then.

How is being an golf pro not a real job? In what way does any employee, in any job, not deserve courteous treatment when they provide same. No one is forcing them to take the job, does that mean only slaves deserve some measure of appreciation for the job they do?

 

[footwedge]

That's the way people act you can't control it, some people are a..holes if you can't handle it quit. No one mentioned anything about been a slave except you and i doubt your in slavery also a bad comparison on your part.

 

[wulsy]

I'm not sure what would be harder:
Salaried behind the counter 10 hours a day (with all its pros and cons) or on the range for 10 hours teaching Joe Bloggs/Joe Shmoe.

Remember a Bmanz has the pick of the students, Joe Shmoe Golf Professional has to take what comes. I tend to think that the behind the counter variation would be less stressful, but more frustrating. But I suppose it's a case of horses for courses: one man's meat's another man's poison.

 

[cmartingolf]

Wulsy, I have been the Director of Golf at three different high-end clubs. Cushy? Hardly. I just resigned from my present gig because I've had a lot of good fortune with my Tour Striker business and frankly, I'd rather give my 55-65 hour a week back to me.

The reality: you either love the job or you don't have a chance. Like Richie said, a lot of good pros won't ever get behind home plate and ump the game. You have to be the top of the top to get the good gigs that you call cushy. The guys that make it look cushy are ducks on the water and are either really smart or about to get fired.

The truth about the business: salaries in golf are deflating like a cheap tire. Few courses are making a nickel these days and for the most part, most are bleeding to the point of needing a medic. The pros are being asked to do every job under the sun and do it better than they did ten years ago and for a lot less money. Lets not forget that like a runway model, a pro has a limited window to shine. I'd say that if a pro is not in his ideal job by 45, he better look at getting the hell out of the game. There is some white belter a generation or two behind him with a hell of lot more practical training.

I take (or took) being a club pro very serious. It was a competition for me. I wanted to pummel the club pros in my section. Not just on the course, but in the men's lounge where the guys talk about the club tournament quality, service, etc. I wanted to be known as the best club pro in the business. My trajectory toward that goal wasn't far off. The unfortunate reality of the game, is that IF you are indeed good and can do the laundry list of things that make a club pro great, you had better know the opinion leader of the club where you fancy yourself working and he better love you. Resumes are great for wiping your arse. You need to make an impression and have others help. While it may be sour grapes; I've seen a bunch of guys get great jobs not on their overall merit, rather on their network. I've benefited from that too.

Bob Ford is a legend in the business, but I assure you, he is a very crafty, smart, charming business man. He just wanted to be a club servicing people. You either can or can't do it. Oddly, the older I get the less of the "Yes, Sir" I have in me.

I admire Brian and what he has done. He's helped me better myself (made a dent for sure) and I like the trajectory he is on and, I can guarantee he's only ramping up on the hard work he's put behind him.

Anyway, rambling on, but "cushy" got me a bit

Cheers,

Martin
Former Cushy Golf Pro Guy

 

[trickyric67]

My best friend is a head pro at a very private club in the MET section and if you ask me those jobs suck. He has a constant battle with the millionaires who want this or that product but at outlet prices so he has to balance inventory by personality and if they don't want what they told you to get them, SE la vie, and it's off to a trunk sale. He has to work 12-14 hour days for 6 months of the year and is responsible for every little golf related thing, if the person who took 2 lessons 4 months ago and never practiced has a bad tournament it's his fault, if the golf cart was too slow or too fast: his fault. He brings the caddies because the membership says they want them and then they don't take them. the caddies stop coming and it's his fault there aren't enough. It is a thankless job that can be very draining if you don't really love what you do.
on the other hand being strictly a teacher is much more fulfilling, people come to you and pay for your guidance, those people are more likely to practice and care because they have stepped out of their life to come and see you. there is pressure for sure to get results but as a good teacher you mostly will.
I think Brian gets to work with people from all over the world and travel and see thing in golf that a club pro doesn't, he gets to follow his passion because he is his own boss and so he can set the agenda.
I think in golf if you can't be a player then the dream job is top notch instructor.

 

[wulsy]

Martin, thanks for sharing your experience and all the best with the Tour Striker business. It's a great teaching aid.

Tricky, I'd agree:

No1 Player, No2 Top Instructor, No3 Top/tour Caddie, No4 Full time Joe Schmoe Intstructor, No5 Director of Golf (high end), No6 Director of Golf (resort/public), No7 Road digger/shelve stacker, No8 Assistant Pro.

 

[Steve Greffen]

Martin, thanks for sharing your experience and all the best with the Tour Striker business. It's a great teaching aid.

Tricky, I'd agree:

No1 Player, No2 Top Instructor, No3 Top/tour Caddie, No4 Full time Joe Schmoe Intstructor, No5 Director of Golf (high end), No6 Director of Golf (resort/public), No7 Road digger/shelve stacker, No8 Assistant Pro.

Let's just say that's just your opinion, because you are way off on 7/8 in my books buddy. And it depends in the job and club but I'd rather be where I am than in a job that your head was on the chopping block every minute. Again that's my opinion.

 

[Tom Losinger]

Wulsy, I have been the Director of Golf at three different high-end clubs. Cushy? Hardly. I just resigned from my present gig because I've had a lot of good fortune with my Tour Striker business and frankly, I'd rather give my 55-65 hour a week back to me.

The reality: you either love the job or you don't have a chance. Like Richie said, a lot of good pros won't ever get behind home plate and ump the game. You have to be the top of the top to get the good gigs that you call cushy. The guys that make it look cushy are ducks on the water and are either really smart or about to get fired.

The truth about the business: salaries in golf are deflating like a cheap tire. Few courses are making a nickel these days and for the most part, most are bleeding to the point of needing a medic. The pros are being asked to do every job under the sun and do it better than they did ten years ago and for a lot less money. Lets not forget that like a runway model, a pro has a limited window to shine. I'd say that if a pro is not in his ideal job by 45, he better look at getting the hell out of the game. There is some white belter a generation or two behind him with a hell of lot more practical training.

I take (or took) being a club pro very serious. It was a competition for me. I wanted to pummel the club pros in my section. Not just on the course, but in the men's lounge where the guys talk about the club tournament quality, service, etc. I wanted to be known as the best club pro in the business. My trajectory toward that goal wasn't far off. The unfortunate reality of the game, is that IF you are indeed good and can do the laundry list of things that make a club pro great, you had better know the opinion leader of the club where you fancy yourself working and he better love you. Resumes are great for wiping your arse. You need to make an impression and have others help. While it may be sour grapes; I've seen a bunch of guys get great jobs not on their overall merit, rather on their network. I've benefited from that too.

Bob Ford is a legend in the business, but I assure you, he is a very crafty, smart, charming business man. He just wanted to be a club servicing people. You either can or can't do it. Oddly, the older I get the less of the "Yes, Sir" I have in me.

I admire Brian and what he has done. He's helped me better myself (made a dent for sure) and I like the trajectory he is on and, I can guarantee he's only ramping up on the hard work he's put behind him.

Anyway, rambling on, but "cushy" got me a bit

Cheers,

Martin
Former Cushy Golf Pro Guy

YouTube - Braveheart Freedom

Probable feeling of the average club pro doing his job that he wishes he loved like he had hoped for in the beginning up to about the 2:05 mark....2:05 to 2:15 Martin Chuck at this moment in his life....2:09 to 2:12 average board member and his buddy

I will bet Martin is singing every song with the word freedom in it that he can think of. Best wishes for your success!!!

 

[Tom Losinger]

My best friend is a head pro at a very private club in the MET section and if you ask me those jobs suck. He has a constant battle with the millionaires who want this or that product but at outlet prices so he has to balance inventory by personality and if they don't want what they told you to get them, SE la vie, and it's off to a trunk sale. He has to work 12-14 hour days for 6 months of the year and is responsible for every little golf related thing, if the person who took 2 lessons 4 months ago and never practiced has a bad tournament it's his fault, if the golf cart was too slow or too fast: his fault. He brings the caddies because the membership says they want them and then they don't take them. the caddies stop coming and it's his fault there aren't enough. It is a thankless job that can be very draining if you don't really love what you do.
on the other hand being strictly a teacher is much more fulfilling, people come to you and pay for your guidance, those people are more likely to practice and care because they have stepped out of their life to come and see you. there is pressure for sure to get results but as a good teacher you mostly will.
I think Brian gets to work with people from all over the world and travel and see thing in golf that a club pro doesn't, he gets to follow his passion because he is his own boss and so he can set the agenda.
I think in golf if you can't be a player then the dream job is top notch instructor.

I agree.....Like a wise man once told me...."Try to never work for someone who knows less about what you do than you do."