Brian's Report from the 2008 TGM Summit

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Brian Manzella

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As many of you know, I am down in Florida for both the Golfing Machine Summit and the PGA Teaching & Coaching Summit.

My travel companions, roommates, buds, and constant needlers for the trip—as well as many in the past, are Bentley J. Doyle, PGA, G.S.E.D., crystal Golfing Machine holder, and Steve Khatib of Australia, PGA, G.S.E.M., he of metallic silver belts with chrome buckles.

The Golfing Machine summit was a good summit, as all of them have been, but of course, they could always be better.

Dr. Matthew M Rosman, gave the first presentation on his upcoming B.I.A., basically a TGM version of Titleist's TPI, from a different perspective. Only one problem with his talk—he didn't talk about his findings, only that these findings would be released next year.

Rosman and Dr. Gary Stein, with disappointingly very little to add, gave a presentation on the iClub's 3-D system. I missed not having much more of Gary's academic viewpoint on our teaching programs.

Dr. Aaron Zick then gave his much anticipated now-annual physics presentation as it relates to The Golfing Machine. It was—as usual—fantastic!

He explained why any club that has perimeter weighting is harder to clubface manipulate than one with evenly distributed weight. Now we know why Tiger, Johnny, Jack, Arnie, Sam, Ben, Byron, and Bobby, all used this type of iron.

Zick reviewed a segment from last year, where he showed—using he VERY ADVANCED mathematical muti-segment model—how a swing with Force Along the Shaft (i.e. Drag Loading or TGM "Swinging") only would produce about 85% of the maximum possible speed for a given golfer, and one where when the golfer waited for the shaft to be vertical for the last time before impact, and then applied Force Across the Shaft (i.e. Drive Loading or TGM "Hitting") as well—while continuing to pull lengthwise, would produce 100% of this theorecical maximum.

No biggie, we knew that from last year.

But...

When asked to plug-in a Force Across the Shaft (i.e. Drive Loading or TGM "Hitting") ONLY model, the number became disturbing low!

NOTE: No kidding. ALL "so-called" HITTERS USE SOME "Swinging," but they admit to using next to none. So, Zick added 50% of the Force Along the Shaft power to 100% of the Force Across the Shaft power, and the total force produced clubhead speed of only 54%!!!

So, in plain English, a PHD in Physics told some of us what we already knew.

"Pure Hitting" for full shots is total BS. A complete an utter impossibility done the way it is often explained. Just as sure as a 100 lb. 10 year old boy could pick up an automobile with one arm—if someone with a hydraulic jack was hidden on the other side of the car—EVERY so called "Pure Hitter" who hits it out of their shadow are closet 4-Barrel semi-Swinger AT LEAST.

I realize this will cause an uproar in the "I Love Hitting" community, but, hey, science is science so eat some crow and don't cry in your soup. This time "you are wrong—AGAIN."

Ho-hum.

Dave Edel, did a wonderful presentation on Putting and his peerless Edel Putter Fitting System. I have heard Dave do 3 or 4 similar talks, and this one was light years better. We learned that the D-Plane is in full effect in putting as well, and because of it, and the fact that almost all good putts are hit on the upstroke, all putts are sort-of mini "cut shots."

Don Shaw gave a heart-warming talk about his relationship with Homer. He EASILY spent the most time with the man of all A.I.s, and was very thankful for what he learned, their friendship, and the crystal "Golfing Machine" he received for his Lifetime Achievement.

At dinner where Mr. Shaw received his award, we listened to Alex Sloan, a G.S.E.D. like Don Shaw, who talked about his 10 days with Homer Kelley, and he experiences with the book since 1979. Sloan also was award the Lifetime Achievement Award crystal "Golfing Machine."

DAY 2:

John Rohan-Weaver (Guitar Hero on this site) show us his newest swing trainer, as well as some old favorites. He did a great job presenting, and is never boring or dull. His line laser confirmed some beliefs of mine about the slight inward bending of the plane line with some patterns.

Golf Digest Top 50 Instructor Tom Ness (also an endorser of NSA2 ;)), gave a superb REAL-WORLD presentation of actual case studies from his lesson tee. Tom is a great guy, has wonderful stories, and thinks that the clubface should be fixed first in most slicers.

Tom also did a great job explaining parallax, a favorite subject of mine and Michael Finney's. He showed how a ground-height target-line mounted camera, would have next to zero of this problem. Try it.

Tom was assisted by Mark Connel from JC Video, makers of the very best video software fro golf. Mark then followed with a very in-depth report on the current a future state of Video Software and Hardware. Mark is a very good speaker as well, and kept everyone's interest.

Lorin Anderson of AMF Golf Management (of which I am a member), gave a talk about marketing yourself and your brand. I have heard his talk three times now, and I learn something each time.

Following this we had our annual group photo, and proceeded to the Driving Range where we could sample all of the training devices, and hit balls, give impromptu lessons and clinics.

After the last presentation by Jeff Evans who sells the #3 pressure point trainer, I asked a couple of questions to the group.

The second created a mini-firestorm of debate—which I love, of course.

The question was simple, was do TGM-types always hit chips with the severe front edge of the club, and an elongated set of straight arms in the follow-through, ala "Flipper," and PGA TOUR players use a soft arm, small arc finish, after a angled-hinged mid sole contact.

You think I would have asked Bill Gates "why he always copies Apple?"

The spirted debate ended way too soon, as time was "up," but the best the defenders of the front-edge, long armed, mini-arched left wrist chippers could come up with was—"Those PGA TOUR Pros are wrong."

:eek:

After all was said and done, I left with two "GOLD STARS."

Ben Doyle gave me a ball-striking test with a 6-iron—high, low, extra low, fade, draw, cut, etc. He said "You're ready."

Trust me, that's one gold star. :cool:

Then, that evening, Dr. Zick told Steve Khatib, "Brian's comments are always well thought out and have merit. The passion he puts behind his ideas show his endeavor to find out the TRUTH beyond what appears to be is obvious."

That's TWO if you are counting at home. ;)

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I won an award. Well to be more exact, Ben, Steve, Leo Halloran, and I won an award. We were presented with the distinguished award given for perfect attendance at Golfing Machine Summits—a 2008 official TGM hat.

Can't beat that.

BManz
 
...define "True Hitting"?

That's a good question.

Also, although I'm open to a lot of ideas - when someone uses a percentage like 54% in that context- you better have warning BS or bad information flags going up in your brain.

Not to say that he doesn't have some good information nor to say that if more fully explained there might be some relevant information to be learned.
 
Last edited:

hcw

New
Am still curious...

It wasn't "true hitting" by definition.

"True Hitting" came out MUCH WORSE THAN 54%!

THIS ALLOWED FOR 50% SWINGING.

...what Dr. Zick used to distinguish "hitting" vs. "swinging"...i'm of the opinion that there isn't the "absoluteness" of difference that many take from TGM and i think a lot of the problem is that folks using the same terms in reality mean different things...was just looking for info on what Dr. Zick meant...
 

hcw

New
Thanks, and another question...

Used in this thread, and in the book:

"Hitting" is pushing, "Drive Loading," right hand and arm force ACROSS THE SHAFT.

"Swinging" is pulling, "Drag Loading," pulling lengthwise ALONG THE SHAFT.

...when/where did the "50% SWINGING" come into play?
 

rcw

New
"He explained why any club that has perimeter weighting is harder to clubface manipulate than one with evenly distributed weight. Now we know why Tiger, Johnny, Jack, Arnie, Sam, Ben, Byron, and Bobby, all used this type of iron."

Brian are you just saying that he said it would be easier to work the ball with a muscle back?
Were there other benefits to play a muscle over a cavity?
 
"He explained why any club that has perimeter weighting is harder to clubface manipulate than one with evenly distributed weight. Now we know why Tiger, Johnny, Jack, Arnie, Sam, Ben, Byron, and Bobby, all used this type of iron."
QUOTE]

THANK YOU BRIAN!

As an engineer (BS in Aeronautics) I have been trying to tell people this since I started playing golf. It just made sense to me given my knoweldge of physics and dynamics. While MOI does resist twisting on off-center hits, it also makes clubface control MORE difficult. Not less! Now I can say that even a respected PhD in the golf industry agrees. Ever think that maybe some of those off-center hits you need forgiveness for are because you are having a hard time controlling the clubface???

Blades are not the devil. They are the instruments of real golf swings. :D
 
Dr. Aaron Zick then gave his much anticipated now-annual physics presentation as it relates to The Golfing Machine. It was—as usual—fantastic!

He explained why any club that has perimeter weighting is harder to clubface manipulate than one with evenly distributed weight. Now we know why Tiger, Johnny, Jack, Arnie, Sam, Ben, Byron, and Bobby, all used this type of iron.

Zick reviewed a segment from last year, where he showed—using he VERY ADVANCED mathematical muti-segment model—how a swing with Force Along the Shaft (i.e. Drag Loading or TGM "Swinging") only would produce about 85% of the maximum possible speed for a given golfer, and one where when the golfer waited for the shaft to be vertical for the last time before impact, and then applied Force Across the Shaft (i.e. Drive Loading or TGM "Hitting") as well—while continuing to pull lengthwise, would produce 100% of this theorecical maximum.

No biggie, we knew that from last year.

But...

When asked to plug-in a Force Across the Shaft (i.e. Drive Loading or TGM "Hitting") ONLY model, the number became disturbing low!

NOTE: No kidding. ALL "so-called" HITTERS USE SOME "Swinging," but they admit to using next to none. So, Zick added 50% of the Force Along the Shaft power to 100% of the Force Across the Shaft power, and the total force produced clubhead speed of only 54%!!!

So, in plain English, a PHD in Physics told some of us what we already knew.

"Pure Hitting" for full shots is total BS. A complete an utter impossibility done the way it is often explained. Just as sure as a 100 lb. 10 year old boy could pick up an automobile with one arm—if someone with a hydraulic jack was hidden on the other side of the car—EVERY so called "Pure Hitter" who hits it out of their shadow are closet 4-Barrel semi-Swinger AT LEAST.

I realize this will cause an uproar in the "I Love Hitting" community, but, hey, science is science so eat some crow and don't cry in your soup. This time "you are wrong—AGAIN."

Ho-hum.

sw_hit.jpg

Brian,

Swinging and hitting action feels perhaps very different. However are they really so different as put forward in TGM?

Any extension action along the action line AE is equivalent mainly to a torque around C and partly to a torque around D. A model has no feelings and hence 'sees' swinging and hitting to be largely the same. Particularly if one hits with the wrist bone of the trail hand, minimizing dx, there is indeed very little difference between hitting and swinging. The restrictive checkrein action, due to the triangular structure of shoulders and arms in a swing, makes hitting and swinging to be rather similar actions.

I agree that this mutual exclusive TGM idea of only either hitting or swinging is simply folklore and better be left alone to collect dust. :D It just boils down to using as many muscles as possible to generate torque efficiently, hence being an efficient swatter. :cool:
 
Seems to me that in order to move the golf club in a "golf-like arc" you must always be using some combination of Drag and Drive loading.

If you use only Drag loading you are throwing a javelin.

If you use only Drive loading you are twirling a baton.
 

hcw

New
Was there any difference...

...Dr. Aaron Zick then gave his much anticipated now-annual physics presentation as it relates to The Golfing Machine. It was—as usual—fantastic!

He explained why any club that has perimeter weighting is harder to clubface manipulate than one with evenly distributed weight. Now we know why Tiger, Johnny, Jack, Arnie, Sam, Ben, Byron, and Bobby, all used this type of iron.

Zick reviewed a segment from last year, where he showed—using he VERY ADVANCED mathematical muti-segment model—how a swing with Force Along the Shaft (i.e. Drag Loading or TGM "Swinging") only would produce about 85% of the maximum possible speed for a given golfer, and one where when the golfer waited for the shaft to be vertical for the last time before impact, and then applied Force Across the Shaft (i.e. Drive Loading or TGM "Hitting") as well—while continuing to pull lengthwise, would produce 100% of this theorecical maximum.

No biggie, we knew that from last year.

But...

When asked to plug-in a Force Across the Shaft (i.e. Drive Loading or TGM "Hitting") ONLY model, the number became disturbing low!

NOTE: No kidding. ALL "so-called" HITTERS USE SOME "Swinging," but they admit to using next to none. So, Zick added 50% of the Force Along the Shaft power to 100% of the Force Across the Shaft power, and the total force produced clubhead speed of only 54%!!!

So, in plain English, a PHD in Physics told some of us what we already knew...


...in the path the shaft traveled in the "Swinging" vs. "Hitting" only models?
 
regarding the cb or muscleback designs: the mb would be the one for clubface control, which to me would be to work the ball more. but if not hitting the sweetspot, wouldn't the cb still be more preferred?
 
THE Report from the "Golfing Machine" Summit

Just a little add on to Brian's great update would be the AI's in attendance finding out about the May 2009 release of a book on the life of HK. We also were privy to seeing pictures of HK at driving ranges and in his studio working on TGM. Brian did cause a little stir of debate on the range but I always take it as an avenue for him to make us think and become better teachers and I thank him for his desire to make all of us in attendance become the best teachers we can be. Dr. Zick was challenged during his presentation by Ben Doyle and it was a wonderful experience to see and listen to both sides of the explanation. This will only happen at TGM Summit where questions can be asked. At the PGA Summit there are no questions asked because if they were allowed Brian and Ben would have many and those in attendance would learn much more about the golf swing. That is why I have attended all of TGM's Summit and I was honored to be on same stage with Brian, Ben and Steve to receive the attendance award. When I filled out my report for the recent summit as to who I would like to speak in 2009. My choices are Brian Manzella and Gregg McHatton. I hope it happens.
 

TPG

New
Explanation re. chipping

Brian said:

The question was simple, was do TGM-types always hit chips with the severe front edge of the club, and an elongated set of straight arms in the follow-through, ala "Flipper," and PGA TOUR players use a soft arm, small arc finish, after a angled-hinged mid sole contact.

can someone describe in more detail what Brian is referring to regarding the preferred chipping technique?
 

TPG

New
Trying the swinging technique

Since I took up TGM, I have been a hitter - I tried the swinging technique - the way I visualized/felt it was to lightly try to pull the grip lengthwise off of the shaft - helpfull for my long irons !
 
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