Closure Rate - Path

[cwdlaw223]

Does the face closure rate affect the club path in any way? For example, does the closing of the face cause/influence/pull the shaft move more out to in.

Of course, is the opposite true? Path affects face closure rate?

Curious given all of the various forces in play and the increased weight of the clubhead given the velocity increase and corresponding gravitational mass gain (assumption here) of the clubhead. If I used a scientific word wrong please correct me (except SteveT - he'll just make stuff up).

 

[mjstrong]

I would think that it would depend on the cause of the difference in closure rate. Meaning, whatever caused the closure rate to change could cause a change in path, but the difference in face movement itself would likely not be the cause of any change in path.

Just my opinion.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Thanks. I was hitting balls on Trackman and the question popped into my head. Maybe we'll never know until
the club itself becomes the measuring device.

 

[Michael Finney]

very interesting question that will hopefully be answered....with what is happening to the shaft in relation to the hands and the club's COM, i would imagine the "closure rate" is affecting everything....that is path, velocity, dynamic loft, face angle, angle of attack, vertical swing plane (old name)....now to how much of a degree it is affecting these values is not known - yet....and ultimately how much do we have control over it (closure rate) and how much does it matter?

undertsanding enso numbers is a step in the right direction....

here's a tidbit....

impact to max deformation of the golf ball - enso ranges....

.3 degrees of closing - .8 degrees of closing

center strike of course

 

[cwdlaw223]

Thanks Mike. So much going on right before and during impact.

I've found on Trackman that for center strikes the more I'm out to in with my path the easier it is to get very high (>5* for a driver - no big face angle numbers with my irons) face angle numbers. It doesn't always happen like this, but enough where I start to question how it all relates. Sometimes I think I have the feeling for perfect numbers and then other times I don't. I think we all had that perception prior to Trackman. Trackman just confirms it. I don't ever want to go back in time without such feedback.

 

[SteveT]

Could somebody define "closure rate"... in simple terms and what is measured on Trackman?

I am familiar with the orientation of the clubhead in relation to the club shaft as defined by TrueTemper ShaftLab... which measured toe-up and toe-down shaft tip deflection of the clubhead at different point of the downswing.

What is the significance of "closure"?

Also, if closure rate is measured, around which axis does it occur... the shaft axis or the longitudinal gravitational axis?

undertsanding enso numbers is a step in the right direction....

here's a tidbit....

impact to max deformation of the golf ball - enso ranges....

.3 degrees of closing - .8 degrees of closing

center strike of course

Mike, what is enso measuring during the impact event, and around which axis is closure occurring?

The impact event occurs over about 3/4" of downswing path, with about 3/8" of compression and 3/8" of restitution.... and then the ball separates from the clubface.

Interestingly, the ball will be off the driver face before the leading edge clips the tee ... go figure!!!

 

[Todd Dugan]

very interesting question that will hopefully be answered....with what is happening to the shaft in relation to the hands and the club's COM, i would imagine the "closure rate" is affecting everything....that is path, velocity, dynamic loft, face angle, angle of attack, vertical swing plane (old name)....now to how much of a degree it is affecting these values is not known - yet....and ultimately how much do we have control over it (closure rate) and how much does it matter?

undertsanding enso numbers is a step in the right direction....

here's a tidbit....

impact to max deformation of the golf ball - enso ranges....

.3 degrees of closing - .8 degrees of closing

center strike of course

But this is rotation relative to the Target Line, not rotation relative to the Path of the clubhead, right? Haven't we learned that rotation of the face to path is halted, temporarily, upon sweetspot impact?

 

[Michael Finney]

ENSO is not measuring the closure rate during the impact intereval....it is measuring it just before impact....i figured the amount of closing during the impact interval by simply multiplying the amount of time the ball is on the face and the degrees/sec....i am ceratin that even on a perfect center hit, the club face is affected by the violent collision....so the numbers i posted above would be a good guess at how much closing is going on if the ball didn't distort the head's travel at all - that's a big supposition

trackman does not measure closure rate

 

[Michael Finney]

But this is rotation relative to the Target Line, not rotation relative to the Path of the clubhead, right? Haven't we learned that rotation of the face to path is halted, temporarily, upon sweetspot impact?

halted....depends on the location of the strike.....affected, yes

 

[Dariusz J.]

If we want to benefit from biophysics, it's useful to talk about closure rate in regard to swing path only; closure rate in regard to target line is totally misleading.

Cheers

 

[Frans@France]

trackman does not measure closure rate

it doesn't show it, but does measure it.

 

[Michael Finney]

Can't see the face....calculates face angle......no measurement of rate of closure

 

[Brian Manzella]

I've found on Trackman that for center strikes the more I'm out to in with my path the easier it is to get very high (>5* for a driver - no big face angle numbers with my irons) face angle numbers.

ALL of this CW, is subject and pattern dependent.

ENSO is not measuring the closure rate during the impact intereval....it is measuring it just before impact....i figured the amount of closing during the impact interval by simply multiplying the amount of time the ball is on the face and the degrees/sec....i am ceratin that even on a perfect center hit, the club face is affected by the violent collision....so the numbers i posted above would be a good guess at how much closing is going on if the ball didn't distort the head's travel at all - that's a big supposition

trackman does not measure closure rate

Enso is measures the closure the whole downswing....we may be getting the "just before impact number."

If we want to benefit from biophysics, it's useful to talk about closure rate in regard to swing path only; closure rate in regard to target line is totally misleading.

According to you.

In the real world of golf instruction, which includes STUDENT and TEACHER instruction, you need both—PLUS maybe another relationship.

Can't see the face....calculates face angle......no measurement of rate of closure

It sees the difference in width of the mass of the clubhead as in approaches impact, during impact, and past impact. It can probably tell closing, just not in a useful way.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


If you folks are wondering what all the "Rate of Closure" talk is all about, I am going to tell you:

There are several different methodologies out there in golfdom that have a hypothesis that suggests that LESS closure in the "bottom of the hula-hoop" make it easier to control contact, direction, and path.

We think they are full of it.

We are currently actively doing research in this regard, and there is much more to come in the future.

In a world where sadly misinformed golf teachers are saying things like "An open clubface has NEVER caused a slice" and "TrackMan gets funny readings on swings with a lot of closure," someone who really doesn't care a lick how the findings come out—toward what we THINK or toward what they GUESS—need to find the answers.

We found quite a few of them this week!

Stay tuned!