club face

[shootin4par]

I need some assistance for a problem I cannot seem to get rid of. I am hitting big draws mainly with the long clubs, hybrids and woods. ball is starting right of tafget but overdraws very consistently. I have gone to a weak grip, but that has not changed it. what are all the possible causes of this? One thing that seemed to change the overdraw was teeing it off the toe a little but that made me overdraw the nine iron, which I did not have a problem with before teeing it off the toe
thanks guys

 

[Perfect Impact]

Short clubs need a larger lead angle (which is the angle that the handle, at address, leads the clubhead), hence a ball position more back in your stance. You mentioned 9 iron... As for the other clubs, it may be related: ball too far forward. Understand that the further forward the ball, the more the arms will have rolled around leftward prior to impact. Ball back, they have rolled less. It DOES need experimenting with grip strength and ball position unless you have some major swing issue, which is doubtful. Of course, any thrusting in an effort to advance the SHAFT ITSELF with the hands/wrists is a no no: I am assuming you are not doing that, given you are posting here...in the no flipping allowed universe of BM.

 

[Brian Manzella]

No, no, no...

Understand that the further forward the ball, the more the arms will have rolled around leftward prior to impact. Ball back, they have rolled less.

Nope.

The forward ball position IS WHAT HE NEEDS to not swing too far to the right, which is his PROBLEM.

It DOES need experimenting with grip strength and ball position unless you have some major swing issue, which is doubtful.

Swinging too far to the right is a BIG issue, even with tour players—trust me.

I am assuming you are not doing that (FLIPPING), given you are posting here...in the no flipping allowed universe of BM.

No George, flipping IS ALLOWED.

Just not recommended.

And neither are answers that sound like rehashed Golf Mags.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The FIX.

I need some assistance for a problem I cannot seem to get rid of. I am hitting big draws mainly with the long clubs, hybrids and woods. ball is starting right of tafget but overdraws very consistently. I have gone to a weak grip, but that has not changed it. what are all the possible causes of this? One thing that seemed to change the overdraw was teeing it off the toe a little but that made me overdraw the nine iron, which I did not have a problem with before teeing it off the toe
thanks guys

Ever watch "Never Hook Again?"

If not, you should, but in the mean time, search the topic.

As far as the condensed version:

BACKSWING: Ball more forward, head in center of feet, shoulders slightly open, hip slide only FEELING on the bacswing as your hands and clubhead GO UP THE WALL and pull your shoudlers ONLY AS MUCH AS THEY DO.

On the DOWNSWING: Start unwining to THROW THE FRISBEE, THEN DROP THE ARMS STRAIGHT DOWN THE WALL, MAKE SURE THE SEQUENCE THROUGH THE BALL IS hips-hands-open clubface, then let your UNWIND pull the club and hands LEFT OF THE WALL.

 

[shootin4par]

Ever watch "Never Hook Again?"

If not, you should, but in the mean time, search the topic.

As far as the condensed version:

BACKSWING: Ball more forward, head in center of feet, shoulders slightly open, hip slide only FEELING on the bacswing as your hands and clubhead GO UP THE WALL and pull your shoudlers ONLY AS MUCH AS THEY DO.

On the DOWNSWING: Start unwining to THROW THE FRISBEE, THEN DROP THE ARMS STRAIGHT DOWN THE WALL, MAKE SURE THE SEQUENCE THROUGH THE BALL IS hips-hands-open clubface, then let your UNWIND pull the club and hands LEFT OF THE WALL.

yes, I have watched never hook again. to add a little info, I have a lot of axis tilt, so I guess I should srtaighten this up, I do play the ball very forward, can be outside of my left shoulder at times, shoulders are square, hands are in line with belly button. I can come over the top if I am not carefull but I can also hit a big push too, it is possible I may be coming out of my spine angle on the down swing, and at address I have my left arm and club shaft almost straight. let me know if that info changes anything, thanks brian and guys

 

[SOS]

shootin4par - Having the same affliction myself (probably worse), all I can say is "I feel your pain, man".

Just got back from the range having tried Brain's prescription in "Never Hook Again" (NHA). My results were not great but showed promise. The initial flight of my driver shots were much straighter but low.

Through the bucket I seemed to develop a sense for doing the right thing which for me, in addition to NHA guidance, was:
1) shift weight into my braced right leg (ie, weight on inside of right foot and right knee steady) to initiate backswing (startup), follow by.
2) right forearm pickup to set club and pull my left shoulder around the last little bit near the top, follow by.
3) somewhat slow, but positive steady weight shift forward to initiate downswing - making sure to unwind from the ground up (very important).

From this tightly wound position it was easy to ruin things by rushing the downswing. I had to really focus on unwinding, like Brian says, from the ground up to the left of the target line.

With Brian's help in NHA I have found hope - many thanks.

Hope my two cents helps,
SOS

 

[Perfect Impact]

Nope.

The forward ball position IS WHAT HE NEEDS to not swing too far to the right, which is his PROBLEM.



Swinging too far to the right is a BIG issue, even with tour players—trust me.



No George, flipping IS ALLOWED.

Just not recommended.

And neither are answers that sound like rehashed Golf Mags.

Brian, do you deny that the arms roll as the swing progresses, hence the further the ball, the more roll has occurred?
And if they do, do they not roll from "open to closed?"
And if the club is closed more with a more forward ball position by that natural rolling motion, is not a more forward position more likely to cause a pull/hook? And the converse, the more back the ball, the less roll has already occurred.

(Brian, I have not characterized your posts with pejorative spin. There's nothing rehashed about common sense...)

 

[revert]

I had a teacher a few years ago who helped me with a problem similar to yours. Her solution was to play the ball as far forward as possible. Fixed my hook in a few sessions. Interesting. When i mention this to anyone they seems to think it was wrong advice, even though it worked.

 

[Perfect Impact]

I had a teacher a few years ago who helped me with a problem similar to yours. Her solution was to play the ball as far forward as possible. Fixed my hook in a few sessions. Interesting. When i mention this to anyone they seems to think it was wrong advice, even though it worked.

That's the beauty of having a hands on looksee: for many a pull or a hook IS the failure to shift weight forward; swinging from the right leg means the path of the club is already to the left by the time the club gets back to the ball. So when THAT is the cause of the hooking, clearly training the golfer to move forward (forcing it...) will address that underlying cause.

More frequently I find that HOOKing -- as opposed to pulling - is for the same reason that Hogan changed his grip: his release required a weaker grip NOT to arrive at separation with the face closed.

 

[shortgamer]

Brian, do you deny that the arms roll as the swing progresses, hence the further the ball, the more roll has occurred?
And if they do, do they not roll from "open to closed?"
And if the club is closed more with a more forward ball position by that natural rolling motion, is not a more forward position more likely to cause a pull/hook? And the converse, the more back the ball, the less roll has already occurred.

(Brian, I have not characterized your posts with pejorative spin. There's nothing rehashed about common sense...)

This guy obviously has a bent plane line. Why in the world would you give him a band-aid? Why not FIX him? Now I see why Brian said modern instuction is what's holding everybody back.

 

[Perfect Impact]

This guy obviously has a bent plane line. Why in the world would you give him a band-aid? Why not FIX him? Now I see why Brian said modern instuction is what's holding everybody back.

There's nothing "obvious" from his posts. There are only assumptions that either I make or Brian makes, because neither ONE of us sees what he is really doing.

One size doesn't fit all, but often the major reason for a problem is simpler than it would seem.

I didn't "guarantee" the fix: I made a suggestion, given that the real underlying reason was NOT evident.

I applaud your loyalty to BM. But I didn't find his name in the list of saints...

 

[shortgamer]

Okay he said the ball starts right of the target which means the face is open to the target line but then it draws to the left which means his swingpath is inside out compared to his already open face which means he has a bent plane line. The modern ballflight laws tell us this without watching him swing.

 

[Perfect Impact]

You have stated an impossibility, ShGmr: if a ball STARTS right of the target line (with a club other than a putter or chipper) the PATH of that club is to the right: if it then draws, the SIDE SPIN that makes it turn is because the face is closed to the path of the club.

It could simply be that he is aimed wrong, with too strong a grip, or actually a host of other issues of swing; again I say assumptions do not replace observation...

 

[shootin4par]

You have stated an impossibility, ShGmr: if a ball STARTS right of the target line (with a club other than a putter or chipper) the PATH of that club is to the right: if it then draws, the SIDE SPIN that makes it turn is because the face is closed to the path of the club.

It could simply be that he is aimed wrong, with too strong a grip, or actually a host of other issues of swing; again I say assumptions do not replace observation...

sorry I dont have a video. I appreciate EVERYONES discussion on this. a couple more things to add. I use a grip very similar to hogan, left hand V at about right eye, right hand v lines up with left. I do know also that Iam not staying behind the ball, shifting my weight has never really been a problem for me

 

[golfie]

Incorrect PGA ball flight laws

You have stated an impossibility, ShGmr: if a ball STARTS right of the target line (with a club other than a putter or chipper) the PATH of that club is to the right: if it then draws, the SIDE SPIN that makes it turn is because the face is closed to the path of the club.

PI

In the TGM world, and likely the real world, the ball leaves the clubhead perpendicular to the clubface.


Golfie

 

[Perfect Impact]

Then why does a fade happen when the clubface is open and the path is to the left of the target? The ball starts to the left of the fairway, but the face is center or right?

Sorry, we disagree.

 

[birdie_man]

Not exactly perp. to the face I don't think...

But not exactly where the path goes either....

Try tracing a straight plane with a very very open clubface.....like hit VJ's driver or something....ball ain't gonna start straight.

I'm not 100% sure of all the specifics of these things....but someone wil know the TGM POV.

 

[golfie]

No need to disagree

Then why does a fade happen when the clubface is open and the path is to the left of the target? The ball starts to the left of the fairway, but the face is center or right?

The requirement of a clubface open to the path of the clubhead to produce left to right shots is correct. Just the starting direction is incorrect. So a pull fade has slightly left looking clubface and a more leftward clubhead path.


Here is a good thread for you to read. jmessner hit the nail on the head:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5981&page=2

 

[shootin4par]

Brian,
you got it right but I am sure you already know that
here is the tips I used, look at ball and where I want to contact it, 2 dimples on inside quadrant, use extensor action on back swing, try and go a little more upright, and swing left. Hit some of the purest shots in years and hit some baby draws 2-5 yards, ball went more on target right from seperation, and with this was even able to fade a driver on purpose which I have not done in 2 years or so. It seems that my problem was trying to swing too much from inside out which made an unatural clubface rotation upon release or a huge push. As long as I focused on contact point, on the inside quadrant, while swinging left centrifigul force will allow me to go down the target line which a much smoother release of clubface, forearms, etc
thanks Bman

 

[shortgamer]

Brian,
you got it right but I am sure you already know that
here is the tips I used, look at ball and where I want to contact it, 2 dimples on inside quadrant, use extensor action on back swing, try and go a little more upright, and swing left. Hit some of the purest shots in years and hit some baby draws 2-5 yards, ball went more on target right from separation, and with this was even able to fade a driver on purpose which I have not done in 2 years or so. It seems that my problem was trying to swing too much from inside out which made an unnatural clubface rotation upon release or a huge push. As long as I focused on contact point, on the inside quadrant, while swinging left centrifugal force will allow me to go down the target line which a much smoother release of clubface, forearms, etc
thanks Bman

How and the heck did Brian fix you without watching you swing?Continued success shootin......