I am a new member to the forum and have tried to soak up a lot of Brian's teaching through his you tube videos. Great stuff. My question is regarding my 14 year old son who is a pretty decent junior golfer. He has a tendency to get the club laid off or too flat at the start of the downswing. His first move down results in the clubhead getting thrown too far behind him. Any thoughts?
club laid off starting down
- Thread starter Rob Ron
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Ryan Smither
Super Moderator
Is the club on-plane at the top and then lays off during the transition?
Or is it laid off initially at the top of the swing?
Or is it laid off initially at the top of the swing?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
At 14, how tall and how strong, relatively, is he? When juniors have clubs either too heavy or too long they often lay it down.
Thanks for the feedback and questions. He is a decent sized 14yo 5'10 145 lbs and yes he has been fitted for his clubs. His clubs are regular length but have lighter shafts. He at times tends to get it laid off at the top but in the transition the club definitely gets significantly more laid off. When the club is square to the line at the top he still gets pretty laid off in transition.
I'm still working on figuring this out and any input is valued. I'm wondering if its predominantly a right hand/palm issue. Shouldn't the right hand/palm face skyward at the top and then in the transition and start of the downswing face downward toward the ground and the ball? It looks like his right palm starts facing sideways too much resulting in the face getting laid off. If so, is the hand the cause or is there another dynamic that is getting the right hand sideways. Or, perhaps its a strength issue in the right arm and hand? Searching . . .
birdie_man
New
If you have more "twistaway" (more of an arched left wrist with the right wrist bent straight back on itself) the palm won't face the sky as much.
(same deal with more of a "flying" ellbow...but you shouldn't have the club laid off in this case...unless you are perhaps an alien of sorts)
If he is not making a full length backswing he may look laid-off too. (try it and you can see) Just a thought since we don't have video. (though he is hitting hooks you say...)
BTW...have any video?
(same deal with more of a "flying" ellbow...but you shouldn't have the club laid off in this case...unless you are perhaps an alien of sorts)
If he is not making a full length backswing he may look laid-off too. (try it and you can see) Just a thought since we don't have video. (though he is hitting hooks you say...)
BTW...have any video?
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Ryan Smither
Super Moderator
Video would be great, as always.
I would stay away from thoughts involving "positions". Laying the club off is engrained in MOTION, not any one or two positions.
You have to find a FEEL for his transition that keeps the club more on-plane.
I would stay away from thoughts involving "positions". Laying the club off is engrained in MOTION, not any one or two positions.
You have to find a FEEL for his transition that keeps the club more on-plane.
I am 50 and I am going through the exact same dilemma, it's not a strength issue for me and I doubt it is for your son either. What is happening is that the club face is basically falling open and you are exactly correct, the right palm will face upward instead of more toward the ground. In my case it starts to fall open somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 way down. I too have not figured out how to "fix" it. I have hit a few balls with the ball way outside my left foot, almost forcing me to cover the ball more, but you have to be careful with that as it could promote an over the top move as well with too much repetition. I keep thinking that maybe swinging on one of those swing arcs, the PVC pipe that you stand inside of and swing along keeping the club in contact with it...I'm thinking that there's no way the club can get in that position coming down since the device itself won't let it...maybe that will sort of retrain the muscles. that's my latest theory, but until if and when I find one of those I'll just keep trying to work on it at the range.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I think you nailed alot of the problem here.
Here's some video
Thanks for the feedback. I've got two videos. The first is shot down the line and yes thats a stick behind him to provide some feedback. The second is a face on shot from a couple of weeks ago. Let me know what you see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIX3wf2hbw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxh42gVbrBA
Thanks for the feedback. I've got two videos. The first is shot down the line and yes thats a stick behind him to provide some feedback. The second is a face on shot from a couple of weeks ago. Let me know what you see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIX3wf2hbw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxh42gVbrBA
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I'm 3 glasses of wine deep and pretty tired but i see some things. He's got a different kind of lay off move where he actually loses axis tilt, the hand path goes 'out' and only the clubhead drops behind. He later straightens the lower body and from an "under the sweetspot" position he tries to catch it up at the bottom.
Do a search for Brian's perfect pivot (specifically getting the weight out of the left foot). Then do a you tube search for lagging the sweetspot and do that drill till you can do it right. Its awesome.
Do a search for Brian's perfect pivot (specifically getting the weight out of the left foot). Then do a you tube search for lagging the sweetspot and do that drill till you can do it right. Its awesome.
Ryan Smither
Super Moderator
Congrats...you've got some good things working there...
I'd work on his pivot also...his pivot reverses a bit much for my liking...
I'd work on his pivot also...his pivot reverses a bit much for my liking...
Kevin, Could you say more about losing axis tilt. I'm not sure that I fully understand what you are referring to. I did find video on lagging the sweetspot and it looks fascinating. Does someone know of a good source for the perfect pivot? I found numerous references but not much directly from Brian or you. Appreciate it.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Ron, Axis tilt is basically spine tilt away from the target. He has plenty at the top of his swing. However, there is a little reverse tilting in his hips as well as overturned with a hand path thats too deep. He's forced to come out of his tilt to get his hands back in front of him which drops the clubhead and sweetspot behind him.
One thing that has helped me is feeling the right wrist is frozen at the top. I try to feel that the right wrist at the top gets into a twistaway position, feel #3 pp on the side of the shaft, not underneath. The shank video of Brian's gives a great analysis of this. Good luck, this is tough to break. I have tried for years, so has Nick Price, with better success than me.
Laid off?
I was expecting to see more "lay-off" than what seems to exist in the 2 d-t-l videos. It seems like at worst the butt end of the club points no more than a few inches outside the ball during transition. Perhaps it's more of a camera angle thing.
The face-on view seems more telling. Has the appearance of quite a bit of "flip" thru (or perhaps just past) impact. The flattened right wrist and bent left look pretty obvious. How is his compression?
I was expecting to see more "lay-off" than what seems to exist in the 2 d-t-l videos. It seems like at worst the butt end of the club points no more than a few inches outside the ball during transition. Perhaps it's more of a camera angle thing.
The face-on view seems more telling. Has the appearance of quite a bit of "flip" thru (or perhaps just past) impact. The flattened right wrist and bent left look pretty obvious. How is his compression?
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