Confessions...Flipper

[starretj]

Brian,
I watched your "Confessions" video again and I really like the instruction. I have been working on this move off and on over the last few years. The times that I "get it" I hit the ball beautifully, it is almost like I can't hit it off line it is so easy. However, in between these times I struggle mightily with this move. When I am off it isn't just a little, shanks and weak, high, right with a good solid pull thrown in for good measure. I can't get the ball anywhere near my target. It is hard for me to continue when it gets this way because I can't play any decent golf. I will revert back to using my old swing with good hand eye coordination and timing my flip. I am a low single digit handicap so it is difficult not to revert back when the shots I am hitting are so pitiful. I know that I need to develop the "Confessions" video into my game to increase my consistency and take my game to the next level. I was hoping that with all of your years of teaching you might have a good understanding of what I am going thru and when I get "off" what the cause and corrections may be.

Thank-you,
Jim S.

 

[lutesk]

I like your post, good question. I hope Brian responds.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Your letting the face open MORE somewhere in the downswing bringing the hosel closer to the ball. I know because i had a problem with this for a while. You need to learn how NOT TO over roll it open. Remember, if you're "swinging" you only turn your hand to the plane.

 

[Brian Manzella]

starretj.

you need to learn to lag the sweetspot....NOT the hosel.

 

[wanole]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

starretj.

you need to learn to lag the sweetspot....NOT the hosel.

I have never really understood that saying. Is there a way of explaining what you mean. In my mind the hozel comes in first until right before impact when the face squares around, so what exactly does it mean to lag the sweetspot?

thanks

 

[lutesk]

quote:Originally posted by wanole

quote:Originally posted by brianman

starretj.

you need to learn to lag the sweetspot....NOT the hosel.

I have never really understood that saying. Is there a way of explaining what you mean. In my mind the hozel comes in first until right before impact when the face squares around, so what exactly does it mean to lag the sweetspot?

thanks

I don't understand it either. If it's explained in a video short, I'm buying.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

See my response...when you let the club over-roll open, your #3 pressure point is now "lagging the hosel" instead of "lagging the sweetspot."

When you roll it open properly (only to the plane, a 1/4) you are now "lagging the sweetspot."

 

[birdie_man]

quote:See my response...when you let the club over-roll open, your #3 pressure point is now "lagging the hosel" instead of "lagging the sweetspot."

When you roll it open properly (only to the plane, a 1/4) you are now "lagging the sweetspot."

...And no more flip!

 

[wanole]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

See my response...when you let the club over-roll open, your #3 pressure point is now "lagging the hosel" instead of "lagging the sweetspot."

When you roll it open properly (only to the plane, a 1/4) you are now "lagging the sweetspot."

I'm not quite getting it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I need a pic.....

 

[birdie_man]

Try to open the clubface as much as you can in the backswing by overrotating (swiveling) your arms and then mash the club straight down to lowpoint, as in Confessions (remember how Brian talks about that forward aiming point?).

Well it doesn't work so well...you have to rotate your hands back to square, right?

 

[starretj]

Brian and others,
Thank-you for the responses so far. I am also glad to hear from others that seem to be struggling with the same issues. Jim 0068, Birdie_Man, or Brian: I do not know what the #3 pressure point is. Would you please do me the favor of explaining. I have no Golf Machine knowledge except for this site. Also Brian, was your "I need a pic" directed to me?
Now for what I have been working on to solve this problem the last couple of days...I found that I was trying to hold my lag too long. If I went ahead and released the club properly without flipping, then my nice, tight shot pattern returned. Does this sound acceptable or have I made a compensation move? I don't believe so because my hands are still well ahead of the ball at impact and I am getting that nice compressed ball sound at impact with very nice trajectory.
I appreciate everyones input up to this point and I hope that you will answer these questions and continue this discussion.

Jim S.

 

[wanole]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

Try to open the clubface as much as you can in the backswing by overrotating (swiveling) your arms and then mash the club straight down to lowpoint, as in Confessions (remember how Brian talks about that forward aiming point?).

Well it doesn't work so well...you have to rotate your hands back to square, right?

Doesn't that mean just start closing the clubface earlier on the way down? I wish I could visually see it.

 

[birdie_man]

That's the thing though...if you don't open the clubface that much on the backswing then you don't have to close it so much through the ball...that's the flip.

Really it is a few completely seperate actions. Proper Hinge Action vs. double-cocking vs. over-swivelling on the backswing...and if you are over swiveling on the backswing you cannot just swivel less so you have the quarter turn of the left forearm that you would have with a proper hinge action- you have to learn a real hinge action. Bent right/flat left.

A "flipless" swing feels like a more direct path/blow to the ball and the clubface is more square to the target longer- vs. the "flipper" excess arm rotation where the club is only square to the ball for a very short time (EDIT- one specific point basically on it's arc through the ball). It can be a fickle thing to time and also feels more like just "polishing" the ball (as Brian says) vs. full compression.

Both swings require a different motion down to and through the ball. Flip through the downswing and impact vs. mash straight to Aiming Point/Low Point. As in Confessions.

Ask if you have any more questions...Brian keep me honest here too- you know 100x more than me.

O...and PP#3 is the first joint of the low hand (right hand for righties) index finger where it touches the grip.

 

[starretj]

I guess this leads to the next question. When I say release I was refering less to the rotation of the left forearm and more to the dropping of the left and right hand together. I do not fully hinge straight up my hands towards my thumbs like some, but rather what feels like straight into the back of my right wrist. Even though I feel that it is straight into my right wrist, there is some upward cocking of the wrists. I can maintain this cocked position well past the ball, but that means that my clubhead is above the ball since there was a small amount of vertical cocking of the wrist. So if I hold this and don't release at all downward, then I have to make some energy robbing, compensating move which leads to my bad shots.
Again, thank-you for your input and help. I look forward to your replies.

Jim S.

 

[birdie_man]

Ok...Release in TGM terms, first of all, to maybe clear up some confusion, is when you Release your stored lag on the ball before impact.

quote:When I say release I was refering less to the rotation of the left forearm and more to the dropping of the left and right hand together.

You mean how low or high your hands go when you extend through the ball and up to your Finish?

quote:I do not fully hinge straight up my hands towards my thumbs like some, but rather what feels like straight into the back of my right wrist. Even though I feel that it is straight into my right wrist, there is some upward cocking of the wrists.

Are you talking about backswing or past Impact here Jim?

quote:I can maintain this cocked position well past the ball, but that means that my clubhead is above the ball since there was a small amount of vertical cocking of the wrist.

So you're holding off your Follow Through then? (BTW, Follow Through, in TGM terms, goes from Impact until the point where both your arms become straight [because the right arm straightens- the last stage after that is the Finish- end of swing])

quote:So if I hold this and don't release at all downward, then I have to make some energy robbing, compensating move which leads to my bad shots.

You have to hold that bend in the right wrist until impact- and JUST AFTER impact for a bit- bent right/flat left. Don't overdo it though.

Actually, this is what they are talking about in this thread: http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2197

Let me know if you get what I'm saying...and also that I understood correctly what you said Jim.

 

[starretj]

Thanks Birdie Man for the link to the thread. My initial question may be getting more in depth than I originally meant. Not that your help isn't appreciated, but rather that my knowledge of TGM is not in depth enough to be able to discuss and understand a lot of what this is getting into. I need to keep it simple for a while on this move of not "flipping". As in my first question, when I do this move correctly, it is awesome, but when my swing gets off, trying to not flip, then it is terrible. I believe that my problem has been to try and hold the lag for too long when it isn't working ( believing that I was releasing too early). I worked this out on the range the other day. But, to you and Brian and other distinguished persons, does this sound like a common problem and what common problems will those of us trying to work on this typically encounter? Also, when we encounter these problems, what are the fixes.

Jim S.

 

[birdie_man]

K we'll try to keep it simple...the thing is though that it may not be a simple thing- and it really is tough to tell what you're doing w/o seeing your swing. We don't know how your grip it, how your hands work back- how much you rotate them etc. I'll keep trying so long as you'll want to listen to me anyway tho. [8D]

And could you answer my questions to you in my last post there Jim? To get us more on the same page.

 

[starretj]

Okay, here we go.
quote:
When I say release I was refering less to the rotation of the left forearm and more to the dropping of the left and right hand together.


You mean how low or high your hands go when you extend through the ball and up to your Finish? No, I was refering to the release of the small amount of vertical cocking of the wrists.

quote:
I do not fully hinge straight up my hands towards my thumbs like some, but rather what feels like straight into the back of my right wrist. Even though I feel that it is straight into my right wrist, there is some upward cocking of the wrists.


Are you talking about backswing or past Impact here Jim? Talking about in my Backswing.

quote:
I can maintain this cocked position well past the ball, but that means that my clubhead is above the ball since there was a small amount of vertical cocking of the wrist.


So you're holding off your Follow Through then? (BTW, Follow Through, in TGM terms, goes from Impact until the point where both your arms become straight [because the right arm straightens- the last stage after that is the Finish- end of swing]) In these terms. I probably am holding off my follow through, I just sense trying to not release the cocked position of my wrist.

quote:
So if I hold this and don't release at all downward, then I have to make some energy robbing, compensating move which leads to my bad shots.


You have to hold that bend in the right wrist until impact- and JUST AFTER impact for a bit- bent right/flat left. Don't overdo it though.
This is what I was talking about earlier when Ithink that I discovered my problems. When I have trouble with this move, I always thought that I was releasing too early. So I would hold my wrist cock even longer and tighter through impact. I am sure that I created a lot of tension in my arms and body trying to hold this position and maybe that is what was causing the shanks.

I hope these answers help you to understand. I was going to try and video tape my swing this weekend, but it rained all weekend from the Tropical Storm. Maybe I can do that in the next few days.

Thanks,
Jim S.