Corey Pavin swing videos, comments please!?!

[Rob Murf]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aI1MQ_ir7Es&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aI1MQ_ir7Es&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I'm NOT a regular poster and I'm new to TGM methodology but I have a real interest in Mr Pavin's swing. Anyone want to give me some insight to what type of pattern this is, i.e. swinger or hitter?

It seems to me to be such a simple swing, I realise it's not the most effective but are there good things to learn or copy from it?

ANY feedback would be great.

Many thanks

Rob

 

[Kevin Shields]

Surely not built for power. Great hands. Mega wide open face takes alot of effort to square so pivot suffers alot.

 

[Rob Murf]

Hi Kevin, really appreciate you replying, could you possibly expand anymore?

When you write "the pivot suffers a lot" do you mean that, as his swing is very hand dominated, and he has to concentrate on squaring the face, that his body pivot must be constrained, intentionally or unintentionally to allow him do that?

I guess I’m somewhat on the right track? To me, Pavin's action looks to be a very, hand and arm, dominated swing, it really looks like he's 'simply' hitting AT the ball with his hands, and all else is secondary. All thoughts of rotation, leg action, pivot etc. SEEM, at least, to be reactive or affected, by what his hands are doing, rather than being the cause. I believe this 'hand controlled pivot' is desirable, and is how many good players swings feel when they swing, it just seems so clear, as an observer, that this is how things ARE working in his action.

Handsy swings are often considered by experts however, as requiring MORE natural timing and thus more skill/talent, to work. This is where my curiosity with Pavin's swing comes from, it LOOKS like a MUCH simpler set of movements, than most of the more 'normal' pro swings I see, e.g. the ones that have more pivot motion, bigger arcs , etc.


Just so you know, I'm NOT a good player... I have a major flip problem and would LOVE to hit it as ‘short’ as Mr Pavin can! See link to my swing below for the horrible truth!

Anyway, apologies for REALLY waffling on, I'm just darn curious, and thinking out loud a bit!!!!

me... http://www.youtube.com/user/robmurf#p/u/3/brLYSv8YLhM

not a great angle to show my superb flip action!

 

[holeout]

Pavin has a mucho weak grip, open clubface, and a very short and restricted backswing, pivot-wise. All of this kept him from being able to really go at it, hence his propensity to hit short, controlled fades.

Slightly off-topic, are you a righty or lefty? I saw both swings on your YouTube channel. What's the deal there?

 

[jenhaoyen]

Hi Kevin, really appreciate you replying, could you possibly expand anymore?

When you write "the pivot suffers a lot" do you mean that, as his swing is very hand dominated, and he has to concentrate on squaring the face, that his body pivot must be constrained, intentionally or unintentionally to allow him do that?

I guess I’m somewhat on the right track? To me, Pavin's action looks to be a very, hand and arm, dominated swing, it really looks like he's 'simply' hitting AT the ball with his hands, and all else is secondary. All thoughts of rotation, leg action, pivot etc. SEEM, at least, to be reactive or affected, by what his hands are doing, rather than being the cause. I believe this 'hand controlled pivot' is desirable, and is how many good players swings feel when they swing, it just seems so clear, as an observer, that this is how things ARE working in his action.

Handsy swings are often considered by experts however, as requiring MORE natural timing and thus more skill/talent, to work. This is where my curiosity with Pavin's swing comes from, it LOOKS like a MUCH simpler set of movements, than most of the more 'normal' pro swings I see, e.g. the ones that have more pivot motion, bigger arcs , etc.


Just so you know, I'm NOT a good player... I have a major flip problem and would LOVE to hit it as ‘short’ as Mr Pavin can! See link to my swing below for the horrible truth!

Anyway, apologies for REALLY waffling on, I'm just darn curious, and thinking out loud a bit!!!!

me... http://www.youtube.com/user/robmurf#p/u/3/brLYSv8YLhM

not a great angle to show my superb flip action!

I'm just guessing here.....too flat on the way back, over rotation of the left forearm, swinging to the right with an open club face, thus flip?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Good guess. Murf, IMO the last thing in the world you would want is less pivot, especially on the way back.

Also, I personally think hands controlled pivot is total garbage. Manipulated, short hitting, etc. A TGM aficionado who likes it needs to explain why it is a good thing to do on anything other than a chip.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Manipulated, short hitting, etc. A TGM aficionado who likes it needs to explain why it is a good thing to do on anything other than a chip.

I like it because I think it makes it easier for me to get the clubhead and pivot in good alignments to start the swing. When I went with 'pivot controlled hands' the one constant worry in particular was the clubhead and clubface...was it too far inside or out, was it too closed or too open? Don't worry about that now.

And I haven't lost any distance going to hands controlled pivot either. I will say that if I was trying to hit the longest drive possible I wouldn't use it, but I don't participate in long driving competitions.

It's not for everybody, but neither is pivot controlled hands IMO.






3JACK

 

[greenfree]

,

I like it because I think it makes it easier for me to get the clubhead and pivot in good alignments to start the swing. When I went with 'pivot controlled hands' the one constant worry in particular was the clubhead and clubface...was it too far inside or out, was it too closed or too open? Don't worry about that now.

And I haven't lost any distance going to hands controlled pivot either. I will say that if I was trying to hit the longest drive possible I wouldn't use it, but I don't participate in long driving competitions.

It's not for everybody, but neither is pivot controlled hands IMO.






3JACK

You found a better blend of the two, for your swing, but like you say it's not for everyone, like most things, thus the Matrix.

 

[dbl]

Re post 7:

Now right here, Richie is countering a Manzella authorized instructor. We have no knowledge if Richie is accurately describing his swing, and in any case if he was...then should the real case be that there is 1% who that method might be acceptable for, he is writing as if it is conceivably 80% of users.

I prefer to have less counter information from nonManzella Authorized folk.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Re post 7:

Now right here, Richie is countering a Manzella authorized instructor. We have no knowledge if Richie is accurately describing his swing, and in any case if he was...then should the real case be that there is 1% who that method might be acceptable for, he is writing as if it is conceivably 80% of users.

I prefer to have less counter information from nonManzella Authorized folk.

Kevin asked why a 'TGM afficianado' would think hands controlled pivot is a good thing outside of a chip. I explained it from my perspective. I certainly don't believe that it's acceptable for only 1% of the golfing population, but nowhere did I mention, imply, suggest or use any verbiage to claim that it could work for 80% of the golfing population.

It's a message board. Threads like this happen and should be encouraged. If you really don't understand that, then I cannot conceive why you would participate on a message board.





3JACK

 

[softconsult]

dbl says "I prefer to have less counter information from nonManzella Authorized folk."

Simply amazing! Last time I checked this was a forum, open to differing points of view. Feeling like I am in China, or Iran! Glad you are not the moderator.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Pavin's is a COMPLETELY HARDER swing to do, and it is not as efficient.

That is why you don't see anyone else on tour with such a weak move...unless they putt better than George Low.

Anyway, apologies for REALLY waffling on, I'm just darn curious, and thinking out loud a bit!!!!

Lot of TGM book literalist stuff there....

As for your swing...

You swing WAY, WAY, WAYYYYYYY too far inside out.

Period.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zBSkbLw7Zzg&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed

 

[Brian Manzella]

Feel vs. Real

I like it (hands controlled pivot) because I think it makes it easier for me to get the clubhead and pivot in good alignments to start the swing. When I went with 'pivot controlled hands' the one constant worry in particular was the clubhead and clubface...was it too far inside or out, was it too closed or too open? Don't worry about that now.

They have golfers who hit it better humming when they swing. There are golfers who play better TRYING to do things that make no sense.

You, Richie, are doing something that you THINK you are doing, but, trust me, you aren't.

But, whatever works.

 

[Rob Murf]

All feedback great, THANKS folks!

Brian, special thanks for taking time to respond and look at my vids, I’m honored!

way way waaaaaay too inside”

That's is a pretty clear and emphatic critique, I'll get to work on it, NO idea how just yet!

Could you perhaps explain more what you meant by your other comment

“Lot of TGM book literalist stuff there....”

I’m not sure what you mean? Is it that what I wrote indicates I’m misinterpreting TGM theory a bit, a lot? That is VERY likely but I’m not sure if that’s what you meant.

And if I may be so bold… why is the Pavin technique so much harder to copy or is that just too dumb a question…

Being a small guy myself I've always loved Sluman’s and Woosnam’s swings but I thought Pavin’s might be simpler to copy, this kinda all armsy minimal body action looking thing…

By the way Holeout I'm lefty I just posted vids converted to righty to try to make it easier for others to relate to the pics… not sure if it helps actually.

Murf

 

[Richie3Jack]

Could you perhaps explain more what you meant by your other comment
I’m not sure what you mean? Is it that what I wrote indicates I’m misinterpreting TGM theory a bit, a lot? That is VERY likely but I’m not sure if that’s what you meant.

Brian just means that there are people that consider themselves TGM 'literalists', meaning that they believe everything in TGM to be true. I understand TGM and I've even been able to translate it, but I'm surely not a TGM literalist and have said repeatedly that I do not believe the book is infallible. But, I still like the book.

Some people misinterpret that as being a literalist, Brian doesn't (or at least I don't think he does). Those who assume because I like the book are usually the ones that erroneously assume that I'm a literalist of the book as well.

And all that being said, as far as the comments and thoughts of Pavin's swing done by Brian and Kevin, I agree with them 100%. Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.





YAKUZA

 

[ZAP]

As a fellow lefty who fought some of the same issues I have to recommend COFF and Never Hook Again. There is some really good stuff on there that really helped me overcome a bunch of stuff.

 

[birdie_man]

I wonder if he developed his game around "5 Lessons."

 

[Rob Murf]

I wonder if he developed his game around "5 Lessons."

I know this thread has moved around a bit but do you mean me?

 

[Richie3Jack]

I know this thread has moved around a bit but do you mean me?

Weak grip or at least that's what I assumed.






3JACK

 

[Rob Murf]

As a fellow lefty who fought some of the same issues I have to recommend COFF and Never Hook Again. There is some really good stuff on there that really helped me overcome a bunch of stuff.

got em both dude, in fact since reading comments i've bought NHA 2.0, it's great, really interesting.

the weather here in Blighty is really lousy right now when (if...) it improves i'm gonna make some more swing vids from proper angles etc. see what you guys think... on the advice of one Mr Fort I've purchased an EX FC100 and i cant wait to see how rubbish my swing is in full glorious slow motion!

good news is i've been trying to swing less inside anyway, even before reading Brains comments, not through any understanding of what i'm doing you understand, just aimless experimentation. aimless experimentation is my specialty you see, closely followed by starting boring threads and mainly writing posts to myself in them....