Chris Sturgess
New member
With so much talk of lag and hitting down on the ball I was kind of shocked to see this. Brian, did you ever try to add lag and a more descending blow to David Toms' swing? Do you think it would help him?
David Toms Swing Vision
- Thread starter Chris Sturgess
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Is he drunk?
Since we're on the topic of Swingvision, i've heard him use the phrase, "compressing the ball between the club and the ground" alot. What in the hell does that mean? Is he serious? Or is that some catchy pop phrase that means something else?
Since we're on the topic of Swingvision, i've heard him use the phrase, "compressing the ball between the club and the ground" alot. What in the hell does that mean? Is he serious? Or is that some catchy pop phrase that means something else?
tongzilla
New
Brian has said before that he tried adding more accumulator lag to David's swing, but the result was shorter distance and less accuracy.
Chris Sturgess
New member
Really, that is interesting. Wouldn't he normally say that the opposite effect should be true? Isn't lag a huge deal in the Golfing Machine and Ben Doyle teachings? Everyone is always impressed with Hogan's lag saying it gives him power and accuracy. And nobody ever discourages it. So I would've assumed that it would help everbody. But yet it actually hurts Brian's star pupil. That is quite a curveball there. I don't understand why?? So why does adding lag hurt Tom's power and accuracy? And is lag a bad idea for some people? Why?
thefuture37
Banned
It was probably that Toms wasn't doing it right and didnt feel like it was worth it to go through the time making the change because it would hurt his game too much in the meantime.
tongzilla
New
Lag pressure is Imperative, not Accumulator lag. Ben Doyle teaches the Four Barrel Maximum Participation pattern which has a preference for Max Trigger Delay. The Golfing Machine is a catalog of components from which the instructor can chose from, so that the student can have great alignments through impact.
Not if you're a multiple pattern teacher and realise the importance of customisation. Hogan is Hogan. Toms is Toms.
Only a small percentage of golfers can perform optimally with Max Trigger Delay. Look at the PGA Tour - most have a Release Point that's between a Full Sweep and Snap.
Because Brian does whatever he needs to to get his students swinging like a pro through impact. Because David Toms hits it better using a Sweep Release. Because his hands slow down too much and Plane Line gets bent when he adds more Trigger Delay.
I know it's Brian's phrase of choice, but can I call "Baloney!" on this one?
Toms is one of the most talented players in the world, working with one of the most talented teachers in the world, but he probably "wasn't doing it right"? Right...
thefuture37
Banned
Your logic doesnt make sense. Just because Toms is good doesnt mean he can do anything with his swing. He can't do alot of the physical moves that Tiger has in his swing for sure. And I didn't say he couldn't do them, I said he couldn't do them after such a short period of time.
ClubCaster
New
Okay, one more time....
I've tried to make this point a couple of times before, but my comments always seem to fall on deaf ears. Let me try again....
Everyone always talks about the angle between the left arm and the clubshaft, as if that were what is important. It is not. The angle that is important is the one between the right forearm and the clubshaft. Virtually all accomplished players have a 90 degree or sharper angle between the outer edge of their right forearm and the clubshaft as the hands pass in front of the right leg approaching impact. Virtually all high handicappers have a much more obtuse angle at this "delivery" position.
David Toms actually has a ton more clubhead lag than the average pro with an amazingly acute angle of 69 degrees between his right forearm and the clubshaft in the delivery position. Below are photos of David and Jason Zuback - another guy that supposedly has a "power leakage" - to help illustrate my point.
Thanks,
CC
I've tried to make this point a couple of times before, but my comments always seem to fall on deaf ears. Let me try again....
Everyone always talks about the angle between the left arm and the clubshaft, as if that were what is important. It is not. The angle that is important is the one between the right forearm and the clubshaft. Virtually all accomplished players have a 90 degree or sharper angle between the outer edge of their right forearm and the clubshaft as the hands pass in front of the right leg approaching impact. Virtually all high handicappers have a much more obtuse angle at this "delivery" position.
David Toms actually has a ton more clubhead lag than the average pro with an amazingly acute angle of 69 degrees between his right forearm and the clubshaft in the delivery position. Below are photos of David and Jason Zuback - another guy that supposedly has a "power leakage" - to help illustrate my point.
Thanks,
CC
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I've tried to make this point a couple of times before, but my comments always seem to fall on deaf ears. Let me try again....
Everyone always talks about the angle between the left arm and the clubshaft, as if that were what is important. It is not. The angle that is important is the one between the right forearm and the clubshaft. Virtually all accomplished players have a 90 degree or sharper angle between the outer edge of their right forearm and the clubshaft as the hands pass in front of the right leg approaching impact. Virtually all high handicappers have a much more obtuse angle at this "delivery" position.
David Toms actually has a ton more clubhead lag than the average pro with an amazingly acute angle of 69 degrees between his right forearm and the clubshaft in the delivery position. Below are photos of David and Jason Zuback - another guy that supposedly has a "power leakage" - to help illustrate my point.
Thanks,
CC
Toms = random release
Zuback = sweep release
Finney = snap release
Toms will have more accumulator delay than Zuback but less then Finney, and Zuback will have less than both and hit it farther anyway.
The fact is that Brian TRIED to make David "look better" to the naked eye and he played absolutely terrible. He even posted a story about how him, David, and some others will playing some people (much worse than David) who were outplaying them pretty good. David hit an aweful shot and said to Brian something to the effect, "i bet that one looked good on video though."
You teach the student what will make them better, end of story.
golfbulldog
New
Hi Clubcaster
Your description of a bent right wrist as the hands pass the right thigh is really a description of a flat left wrist. If the right wrist angle is obtuse then the left wrist will be bending.
A bent left wrist prior to impact is a hacker swing, alters clubface alignment and hence something you will not see in a pro swing.
I don't think this is falling on deaf ears... just something that is at the core of TGM...hence the weird handshake...
You can and should keep the right wrist bent...but you still have the options that Jim described for when the left wrist uncocks/right elbow straightens....can do those without altering the right wrist bend much or at all.
What do you think about Mike Austin/Vardon corkscrew move of the right forearm/wrist from the top?? PM me if you feel that would go off thread too much. Thanks
Your description of a bent right wrist as the hands pass the right thigh is really a description of a flat left wrist. If the right wrist angle is obtuse then the left wrist will be bending.
A bent left wrist prior to impact is a hacker swing, alters clubface alignment and hence something you will not see in a pro swing.
I don't think this is falling on deaf ears... just something that is at the core of TGM...hence the weird handshake...
You can and should keep the right wrist bent...but you still have the options that Jim described for when the left wrist uncocks/right elbow straightens....can do those without altering the right wrist bend much or at all.
What do you think about Mike Austin/Vardon corkscrew move of the right forearm/wrist from the top?? PM me if you feel that would go off thread too much. Thanks
Regarding what Clubcaster said, you nailed it. This "look" that all the pros have has NOTHING to do with lag, it has to do with a bent right wrist. With a bent right wrist and a punch elbow, it "looks" like more lag than it would with a brw and a pitch elbow (with Clubcaster's measure of lag in place); but a punch or pitch elbow doesn't (necessarily) constitute more or less lag.
All we're talking here is accumulator lag. And there are four accumulators, with none of them being the "angle between right forearm and clubshaft". And what it seems like others are advocating that Toms get is more #2 (left wrist cock) accumulator lag.
It sure would look good on camera, wouldn't it?
thefuture37
Banned
Then why doesn't he hit it farther? Toms driving distance in 2007 was 282.5(T-151). If he has so much more lag, why isn't he in the top 100 in DD?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Because more "lag" doesn't always create more SPEED!
Thank you!
Thank you!
You just summed it up with one sentence. It goes back to the Zuback thread where people argued about him having more lag and being able to create more distance. It's like no one can foresee that more lag may actually SLOW DOWN other speed-creating parts of your swing, resulting in a lower clubhead speed.
I know that for me personally, up to now, that when I swing with more of a "delayed" hit and more accumulator lag, my clubhead speed is lower and I hit it crooked. But maybe I'm just not "doing it right" .
Thank you!
You just summed it up with one sentence. It goes back to the Zuback thread where people argued about him having more lag and being able to create more distance. It's like no one can foresee that more lag may actually SLOW DOWN other speed-creating parts of your swing, resulting in a lower clubhead speed.
I know that for me personally, up to now, that when I swing with more of a "delayed" hit and more accumulator lag, my clubhead speed is lower and I hit it crooked. But maybe I'm just not "doing it right"
.ClubCaster
New
Future - just because Toms isn't one of the leaders in driving distance on tour doesn't mean that he isn't hitting the ball as far as he is personally capable of.
Jim - I imagine that you are right that lag doesn't always create more speed, but I don't really have a horse in that race. My only point is that lag should be measured by the angle between the right forearm and the clubshaft, not the angle between the left forearm and the clubshaft. And the ability to attain a 90 degree or sharper angle between the right forearm and the clubshaft in the deilivery position is a defining difference between good golfers and bad golfers.
Golfbulldog and Holeout - Thank you both for responding to the issue that I raised regarding the bent right wrist in the delivery position. I hear what you are saying regarding the flat left wrist. I also understand that this is a TGM-centric forum, and that I'm sort of committing heresy by suggesting that the angle between the right forearm and the shaft is crucial even though it is not described as one of the four accumulators in the yellow book.
But I know from personal experience that it's very possible to have a very obtuse right forearm/clubshaft angle in the delivery position and still have a flat left wrist at impact. I do it consistently, and I've seen other other high handicappers do it on video too.
I even asked Brian, when I saw him in person a few months back, if he agreed that the early unbending right wrist (what I call casting) and not having a flat left wrist at impact (flipping) were two separate issues, and he said yes. I hope he'll read this and fact-check me on that, because it's possible that he didn't understand my question.
Anyway, thanks again for discussing this with me. BTW, Golfbulldog, I'm not familiar with the Mike Austin/Vardon corkscrew move, so I'll have to see if I can find an explanation of it somewhere on the web.
Thanks,
CC
Jim - I imagine that you are right that lag doesn't always create more speed, but I don't really have a horse in that race. My only point is that lag should be measured by the angle between the right forearm and the clubshaft, not the angle between the left forearm and the clubshaft. And the ability to attain a 90 degree or sharper angle between the right forearm and the clubshaft in the deilivery position is a defining difference between good golfers and bad golfers.
Golfbulldog and Holeout - Thank you both for responding to the issue that I raised regarding the bent right wrist in the delivery position. I hear what you are saying regarding the flat left wrist. I also understand that this is a TGM-centric forum, and that I'm sort of committing heresy by suggesting that the angle between the right forearm and the shaft is crucial even though it is not described as one of the four accumulators in the yellow book.
But I know from personal experience that it's very possible to have a very obtuse right forearm/clubshaft angle in the delivery position and still have a flat left wrist at impact. I do it consistently, and I've seen other other high handicappers do it on video too.
I even asked Brian, when I saw him in person a few months back, if he agreed that the early unbending right wrist (what I call casting) and not having a flat left wrist at impact (flipping) were two separate issues, and he said yes. I hope he'll read this and fact-check me on that, because it's possible that he didn't understand my question.
Anyway, thanks again for discussing this with me. BTW, Golfbulldog, I'm not familiar with the Mike Austin/Vardon corkscrew move, so I'll have to see if I can find an explanation of it somewhere on the web.
Thanks,
CC
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thefuture37
Banned
clubcaster is it possible that you are so adamant about lag not being about the left arm/club angle because you never could master that part of the golf swing yourself?
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