Dazed and Confused: How is it possible to hit a straight ball that is not a "push"?

[ronaaronson]

Dazed and Confused: How is it possible to hit a straight ball that is not a "push"?

I think I have been over-thinking the swing for I have suddenly confused myself concerning the following:

If low point is where the club is momentarily moving along the plane line (which for we will assume is parallel to the target line for this discussion) just prior to moving "up" and "in", then when the ball, which is placed before low point, is struck, the club must be moving down and out (to right field), even at separation. It seems to me that the only straight ball that could result from such an impact would necessarily be a "push" to right field. Any ball that found its way to the target would have to be the result of curved flight (i.e. a draw).

Similarly, how can the hitter's angle of approach, cross line hit (which clearly I do not understand) result in a straight ball down the target line? Every time I have tried to hit to "right field", that's where the ball goes.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Great and IMPORTANT Questions...

If low point is where the club is momentarily moving along the plane line (which for we will assume is parallel to the target line for this discussion)

That is very correct.

...then when the ball, which is placed before low point, is struck, the club must be moving down and out (to right field), even at separation.

Almost all of the time. The ball could be a quarter inch or so before low point, and separation could be AT low point.

It seems to me that the only straight ball that could result from such an impact would necessarily be a "push" to right field.

Yes.

Any ball that found its way to the target would have to be the result of curved flight (i.e. a draw).

Yes!

Similarly, how can the hitter's angle of approach, cross line hit (which clearly I do not understand) result in a straight ball down the target line?

It can't.

It won't.

It never will.

It never did.

But you can hit a nice hook, or aim way left and push it at the target.

Every time I have tried to hit to "right field", that's where the ball goes.

It's call physics.

Don't you just LOVE IT?

 

[niblick1]

A question - what does "hitter's line of approach, cross line hit" mean in this context? The ball doesn't "know" if you are hitting or swinging - it only knows the D-plane, right? The "hitting" part of this question is irrelevant, right?

 

[Brian Manzella]

A question - what does "hitter's line of approach, cross line hit" mean in this context? The ball doesn't "know" if you are hitting or swinging - it only knows the D-plane, right? The "hitting" part of this question is irrelevant, right?

As for the so-called "Hitters line of approach," I am sure he was referring to the 11° inside-out (or so) "out to right field" technique.

Whether or not you are "on plane," "drawing a straight plane line," "hitting," "swinging," or anything else—

If you swing that far out to the right, the ball won't go straight at the target.

Ever. ever. Amen.

 

[ronaaronson]

Yes, "hitting" would not be relevant

But how can this so-called angle of approach procedure produce the desired results (a ball directed to the target), specially in light of Homer Kelley saying how far out to right field doesn't even matter too much.

I still feel I am missing something.

 

[ronaaronson]

"If you swing that far out to the right, the ball won't go straight at the target.

Ever. ever. Amen.
"

Then (1) is there something amiss with the angle of approach hitting method in that it does not produce straight-ball flight to the target? and (2) must one place the ball very close to the low point and trace the plane line to hit straight to the target without a push?

 

[niblick1]

As for the so-called "Hitters line of approach," I am sure he was referring to the 11° inside-out (or so) "out to right field" technique.

Brian, when you say "11° inside-out" you mean moving the impact plane line 11 degrees out to right field, not some more complicated calculation of clubhead path, right?

 

[Deadly_Scope]

I think I have been over-thinking the swing for I have suddenly confused myself concerning the following:

If low point is where the club is momentarily moving along the plane line (which for we will assume is parallel to the target line for this discussion) just prior to moving "up" and "in", then when the ball, which is placed before low point, is struck, the club must be moving down and out (to right field), even at separation. It seems to me that the only straight ball that could result from such an impact would necessarily be a "push" to right field. Any ball that found its way to the target would have to be the result of curved flight (i.e. a draw).

Similarly, how can the hitter's angle of approach, cross line hit (which clearly I do not understand) result in a straight ball down the target line? Every time I have tried to hit to "right field", that's where the ball goes.

Absolutely - the clubhead force is tangential to the orbit around the left wrist center and for a straight hit to be achieved the clubhead force must match the same forwards direction towards the target as the clubface.

This leaves two possible ways for the ball to be struck completely straight

1)Hit the ball at low point
2)Hit the ball prior to low point with an open plane line

There must be some reason why Moe Norman didn't ever take a divot and was considered the straightest ball striker of all time - wonder why that was .

 

[vjcapron]

Moe Norman took divots. He took "Bacon strips. Not Pork Chops."

 

[Deadly_Scope]

Moe Norman took divots. He took "Bacon strips. Not Pork Chops."

Bacon strip huh

YouTube - Moe Norman

Looks to me like he hit this was struck pretty near low point....

 

[pecky987]

Bacon strip huh

YouTube - Moe Norman

Looks to me like he hit this was struck pretty near low point....

was thinking of the exact same video matthew. he obviously took a divot there, but the shaft was barely leaning forward, and pretty much right underneath the left shoulder (which i know isnt the real low point location, but still is a pretty decent marker)

 

[Brian Manzella]

But how can this so-called angle of approach procedure produce the desired results (a ball directed to the target), specially in light of Homer Kelley saying how far out to right field doesn't even matter too much.

I still feel I am missing something.

The thing you are missing is simply this:

The TRUE path and TRUE clubface BOTH need to be 0° (square) for the ball to go dead straight.

You can swing—let's say 10° inside-out—and produce a big hook that goes in the hole, if your clubface is about 5° open.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian, when you say "11° inside-out" you mean moving the impact plane line 11 degrees out to right field, not some more complicated calculation of clubhead path, right?

I don't mean moving the PLANE LINE 11° inside-out, I mean the PATH.

I use 11° inside-out all the time to make a point, because there are folks who sell a device pointing this far out to right field that INCORRECTLY say that if you have an 11° inside-out impact while tracing a 0° straight plane line, the ball can go straight. It won't. Ever.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Absolutely - the clubhead force is tangential to the orbit around the left wrist center and for a straight hit to be achieved the clubhead force must match the same forwards direction towards the target as the clubface.

This leaves two possible ways for the ball to be struck completely straight

1)Hit the ball at low point
2)Hit the ball prior to low point with an open plane line

There must be some reason why Moe Norman didn't ever take a divot and was considered the straightest ball striker of all time - wonder why that was .

Hall of Fame post!

Thanks Mathew.

 

[The Hammer]

Brian, when you say "11° inside-out" you mean moving the impact plane line 11 degrees out to right field, not some more complicated calculation of clubhead path, right?

Impact to ball separation path is what you are looking for with the D-Plane. The bottom line is that, since the face angle of the club is so predominantly responsible for the direction of the ball, there simply is nothing else the golfer should try to do other than to hit the BACK of the ball with the sweet spot.

 

[ColinMB]

Wow. I discovered this thread way too late. This is important stuff.

I've been beating myself up over the past few days about how to handle my problem of pushing. It's all I do now. I've had instructors video tape me and confirm I am not over the top.... confirming it finally happened to me:

I have spent the last 6 months swinging inside out, and now I do it. Now to me this at first seemed great because the alternative was over the top. But it's not great because it feels like I can't hit straight... ever. I used to be a fairly straight iron hitter, but now I even push my wedges.

How do you come back from being an inside/out swinger that pushes everything? Play with a closed face? Or change your path back? Is it preferable to play a push? Or try to develop a draw out of this problem?

 

[pecky987]

Wow. I discovered this thread way too late. This is important stuff.

I've been beating myself up over the past few days about how to handle my problem of pushing. It's all I do now. I've had instructors video tape me and confirm I am not over the top.... confirming it finally happened to me:

I have spent the last 6 months swinging inside out, and now I do it. Now to me this at first seemed great because the alternative was over the top. But it's not great because it feels like I can't hit straight... ever. I used to be a fairly straight iron hitter, but now I even push my wedges.

How do you come back from being an inside/out swinger that pushes everything? Play with a closed face? Or change your path back? Is it preferable to play a push? Or try to develop a draw out of this problem?

swing across yout left thigh

 

[puttmad]

Colin,
Obvious question....
Have you tried strengthening your grip a tad?....Should get a nice draw then...

BTW I cured a "too inside" path a while back....
For me the answer was quite simple...just stop swinging the right shoulder "under" so much (I was compressing the right side too early), and swing it more diagonally outwards (which ends up having you swing "more left")..
The result, straight shots and as a side-benefit, no FATS...

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Originally Posted by Deadly_Scope
"Absolutely - the clubhead force is tangential to the orbit around the left wrist center and for a straight hit to be achieved the clubhead force must match the same forwards direction towards the target as the clubface.

This leaves two possible ways for the ball to be struck completely straight

1)Hit the ball at low point
2)Hit the ball prior to low point with an open plane line

There must be some reason why Moe Norman didn't ever take a divot and was considered the straightest ball striker of all time - wonder why that was ."

Hall of Fame post!

Thanks Mathew.

Yeah, it was. A side note is that this is also the reason people (especially myself a while ago) hook knockdown shots with a square stance/path. Because with the ball back in the stance and the low point that much farther ahead of the ball, the path at impact is going that much farther right and the clubface is square. The result being a ball that keeps drifting left and a golfer saying wtf to themself.

 

[tongzilla]

Yeah, it was. A side note is that this is also the reason people (especially myself a while ago) hook knockdown shots with a square stance/path. Because with the ball back in the stance and the low point that much farther ahead of the ball, the path at impact is going that much farther right and the clubface is square. The result being a ball that keeps drifting left and a golfer saying wtf to themself.

that's probably why it's better to TRY to hit fade knockdowns.