Delayed Extensor Action?

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Jono

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The question mark in the subject heading indicates my uncertainty about what I'm about to post. It's something I've been experimenting with lately. Whether it's valid or not, I'll let the reader decide.

Quick background info. I'm 5'8, 150lb and can bench press about half that amount. ie. strength is not my strong suit. (pun intended. :) ) I'm quite flexible and I get OK distances, but whenever I see myself on video, it looks like the club is a bit too heavy for me. Got a bit of lateral movement away from the ball on the backswing, then back to the ball on the downswing. I "collapse" at the top and tend to overswing with all my clubs.

I tried to employ the extensor action on the backswing to keep some width and to stop my arms from collapsing at the top. However, this introduced some unwanted tension and I still collapsed as I changed direction at the top.

Here's a solution that SEEMS to be working for me so far. Instead of aiming for a WIDE takeaway, I try to picture a NARROW takeaway. When I think WIDE, I imagine the takeaway moves of Tiger and Greg Norman. When I think NARROW, I imagine the easy takeaway of Annika Sorenstam. Until my hands reach about waist height, I want to feel narrow. It even feels like my left arm is starting to bend a little.

Here are some pics of Annika from address to waist height on the backswing. (from golfonline.com)

Annika01.JPG


Annika02.JPG


Annika03.JPG


From about waist height, I begin to feel the extensor action. I feel WIDE at the top. I like to picture someone like Davis Love III or Adam Scott at the top position.

Adam04.JPG


The following diagram is supposed to illustrate what I FEEL. It is not supposed to indicate movement of any particular body part or the club. It's just the general FEEL I have during the new and old backswing.

Feel.JPG


The red line indicates the feel of my old backswing. Wide takeaway, and then the inward collapse at the top (indicated by the inward red arrow). The blue line is the feel of the new backswing. Initially narrow and then push the hands UP and AWAY from the target (indicated by the outward blue arrow). The outward push at the top feels like in the 10:30 to 11 o'clock direction. In fact, all I really feel from the address position is my intention to push in that direction. The narrow takeaway seems to happen naturally. So all I really feel is the green arrow. Remember, this push is a rather gentle one to get good width at the top, not a forced one that introduces tension.

Let me try to explain another way. If my arms were a piece of string, the old backswing felt like I was trying to keep the string taut right from the address position, and then invariably collapsing (introducing slack in the string) at the top. Now, it feels like I'm introducing some slack in the string during takaway, up to waist height. Then I stretch the string out in the 10:30 direction.

I have noticed following things on video:

a) Backswing looks tighter with better body turn
b) No collapse at the top and stop short of parallel (whereas before I went past)
c) A little pause at the top as I push my hands (towards 10:30) and start the downswing with the lower body. (ie. smoother transition)
d) Whole swing looks less tense and smoother. Posture is retained better throughout the swing.
e) less lateral shift, head staying more centered.

As I said, I'm just experimenting with this at this stage, but backswing feels much simpler now. Has anybody tried something like this? Thoughts? Could this work for someone who's not strong enough to keep the backswing wide right from the address position all the way to the top?
 
Sounds a bit like the move Australian coach Gary Edwin uses in his right sided swing - Lonard, Pampling etc.
 

Jono

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I love Pampling's swing. Out of all the "Edwin boys", I think his swing is the best.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ohjohn1/pamps.avi

I like a lot of what Edwin teaches, but prefer a bit more weight shift. I know I said I suffer from too much lateral movement, but if I try to do what Edwin teaches to the letter, I seem to lose distance.

Having said that, I did find his instructions very useful and have tried to work some of his teachings into my swing.
 
Brad Lamb uses his system and seems to use his arms only. Very little 'pivot' involvement, very narrow back and through but extremely fast arm speed - goes long though.
 

hcw

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quote:Originally posted by Jono
The following diagram is supposed to illustrate what I FEEL. It is not supposed to indicate movement of any particular body part or the club. It's just the general FEEL I have during the new and old backswing.

Feel.JPG

so what is/are the difference(s) in the downswing with the old vs. new backswing?

-hcw
 
You only need enough Extensor Action to keep your LArm straight.

The wrists should still feel loose.....it doesn't have to be or feel "wide."
 

Jono

New
quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

You only need enough Extensor Action to keep your LArm straight.

The wrists should still feel loose.....it doesn't have to be or feel "wide."

That's what I had trouble doing. Keeping the left arm straight at the top. It used to always collapse. It's partially because of the swing method I was using before which encouraged the left arm to be bent at the top, but also because of lack of strength and fast tempo.

When I say "wide", I mean full shoulder turn and keeping the left arm straight. My wrists are still loose and cocked at the top.
 

Jono

New
quote:Originally posted by hcw

so what is/are the difference(s) in the downswing with the old vs. new backswing?

-hcw

On video, the changes are pretty subtle, but by feel, it's huge.

Basically, I feel that I'm starting from a better position at the top. More compact, better left arm extension, and more centered. As I start down, I feel I'm getting better float loading with better delivery line. I can get the hips through a bit better too. With the old lateral shift, Unless I made the shift back towards the target early in the backswing, I was prone to hanging back on my right foot and casting.

I'm still working on it. :)
 

hcw

New
quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by hcw

so what is/are the difference(s) in the downswing with the old vs. new backswing?

-hcw

On video, the changes are pretty subtle, but by feel, it's huge.

how 'bout how the ball goes?
 

Jono

New
quote:Originally posted by hcw

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by hcw

so what is/are the difference(s) in the downswing with the old vs. new backswing?

-hcw

On video, the changes are pretty subtle, but by feel, it's huge.

how 'bout how the ball goes?

Lower. Hands more ahead of the ball at impact. I've been working on stuff from Brian's Former Flipper video as well.
 
I dunno man.....if it's workin for you then OK.....if it keeps workin for you.

I just think that you should be able to have proper Extensor Action.....it doesn't really req' strength.

....

Check the swings in this thread:
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2788&whichpage=2

See how he's so supple at the same time he's Applying Ex. Action.

You can almost feel like you're using the club's weight to keep your LArm straight in the backswing.

Know what I mean? Watch the video. ..... You kinda fling that club back.

You can be as loose as a friggen noodle and still have Ex. Action. "Extension w/o tension."

If there is tension you're doing it too much......

And it might feel like it's restrictive because you're so used to having that long swing that you describe.
 
Actually, I just read your first post again.

And what you describe...

i.e. going from "narrow" to "wide".....seems to sound pretty good actually....if I am getting the right picture of what you're doing.

You get the club started back, kinda "fling it back" (Lagging Clubhead Takeaway), and then apply Ex. Action.

I think I know what you're getting at now....

I really like how Greg McHatton does it in that clip.

Another:
http://www.zippyvideos.com/1045187623552466/gregswing/
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
You just don't know how to use extensor action properly...that's it.

All of the pictures of annika you posted, all show here with extensor action.
 

Jono

New
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

You just don't know how to use extensor action properly...that's it.

All of the pictures of annika you posted, all show here with extensor action.

I suppose that's one way of looking at it ...

However, compare Annika's position when her hands are waist height to that of Adam Scott. Annika is noticeably narrower. They both may have extensor action, but they look different and I'm sure would FEEL very different too.

Annika03.JPG


Adam03.JPG



Remember, I'm describing what I FEEL. I FEEL like what I'm doing is closer to Annika's takeaway move as opposed to Adam Scott's takeaway move. In any case, the new procedure seems to get me in a better position at the top and get me there more easily and seems to be more repeating.
 

hcw

New
quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by hcw

quote:Originally posted by Jono

quote:Originally posted by hcw

so what is/are the difference(s) in the downswing with the old vs. new backswing?

-hcw

On video, the changes are pretty subtle, but by feel, it's huge.

how 'bout how the ball goes?

Lower. Hands more ahead of the ball at impact. I've been working on stuff from Brian's Former Flipper video as well.

i'm no expert, but is this the difference between going to the end (old/wider) vs. the top (new/narrower)? and now you are hitting vs. swinging before?
 

EdZ

New
Extensor action is something I feel in my right arm, really my right forearm.

Jono - the swing extender is a great way to feel the difference between left arm stretch, and right arm extensor action. What I see different between Adam and Annika is that they are using differnt 'pivot centers'. Adam is turning around the spine, a point on his back, and Annika is turning more around her head. They both have good extensor action, Annika just has an earlier right elbow bend (while still keeping the primary lever/left wedge). She also uses CF more to maintain it, which is what it sounds like you are now feeling, and is a reasonalbe way to go for a true swinger with good rhythm. Hitters may find it more difficult to get too narrow however, and need the structure of extensor action more than swingers do IMO.
 
Jono, a big THX,.... your "feelig"-description helped me a lot.
My overwing is not gone, but the top of the swing is controlled and has a stop.
With "loose" wrists, i got immediately 120 mph on my speed stick.
I´ll try it tomorrow on the simulator.

lg Rico

btw.: Brians new video building blocks is great !
 
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