Depth....

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Squishband

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Well, here is hoping someone will respond....

Firstly I use a swinging pattern... I don't know why, I just do, my swing is all about tempo/rhythm. I also have a very flat plane, my left arm barely gets higher than shoulder level, it just does.. OK... LOL

I have found that if I get the club as far behind the target line (directly behing my head - I guess) as possible at the top i.e DEPTH, using 6-B-1-D, my consistency and solidness of strike is enhanced.

I very often forget this (for months at at a time) and after some poor shots am suddenly reminded of it and it always seems fixes me right up.

However.... I cannot practice swing this feel. I always seem to stop at the top or have some other hitch like standing up mid swing, also it is very uncomfortable as my left arm is S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D and it feels like I am turning too far...

Over the ball I have no swing thoughts but the feeling is there (if I remember) and I really just rotate and whip the ball away...generally ballflight is pretty flat and the divot follows the ball nicely...

Question: Is this something I should be focussing on as a KEY to my swing or is it just a bandaid. I.e should this be something I should remember and work on from session to session or just use to fix my move when I start losing my way.

Thank You to anyone who stayed this far....
 
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MizunoJoe

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You have a "pivot controlled hands" procedure. You rely on a consistent pivot to reliably bring the hands into the impact. What you are doing is as good a "key" as any for this method. The alternative is a "hands controlled pivot" procedure, which provides a SPECIFIC "key", which is driving a pressure point in the hands toward the ball.
 
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Squishband

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Reading between the lines I detect a little disdain... I hope that isn't your intention
I asked the question to learn something new, also don't assume that my procedure is pivot controlled hands.
To quote Mr Thomson or is it Thompson "To be precise - how important is it, irrespective of procedure to create maximum depth at the top" in your oh so humble opinion.
 
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wally888

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I think MJ is right on!
They was the same conclusion I reached. However is based on little knowledge/experience except personal.
Did he touch a nerve. Relax.
 
rwh

rwh

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quote:Originally posted by Squishband

Well, here is hoping someone will respond....

Firstly I use a swinging pattern... I don't know why, I just do, my swing is all about tempo/rhythm. I also have a very flat plane, my left arm barely gets higher than shoulder level, it just does.. OK... LOL

I have found that if I get the club as far behind the target line (directly behing my head - I guess) as possible at the top i.e DEPTH, using 6-B-1-D, my consistency and solidness of strike is enhanced.

I very often forget this (for months at at a time) and after some poor shots am suddenly reminded of it and it always seems fixes me right up.

However.... I cannot practice swing this feel. I always seem to stop at the top or have some other hitch like standing up mid swing, also it is very uncomfortable as my left arm is S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D and it feels like I am turning too far...

Over the ball I have no swing thoughts but the feeling is there (if I remember) and I really just rotate and whip the ball away...generally ballflight is pretty flat and the divot follows the ball nicely...

Question: Is this something I should be focussing on as a KEY to my swing or is it just a bandaid. I.e should this be something I should remember and work on from session to session or just use to fix my move when I start losing my way.

Thank You to anyone who stayed this far....
Click to expand...

First, I think MJ gave you a good answer. Second, without seeing, it's hard to know, but the swing you've described sounds very close to the Jim Hardy One Plane swing he teaches to Peter Jacobsen, Scott McCarron, Paul Azinger and other Tour pros. From your posts to Roger Gunn on another forum, I think you're familiar with it. This swing keys on maintaining the approximately 45 degree bent over address position at least to follow through and, also, relies totally on the pivot to bring the club into impact. If you stand up out of your posture, the club will get "stuck behind you" and you will be inconsistent. So, a good key for you might be retaining your forward spine angle.
 
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Squishband

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I don't follow anyone's methods. I try to figure things out for myself. I guess my swing does look a little similar to a so called SP swing, although I definitely don't have a 45 degree forward bend, nor do I rely on the pivot to bring the club into impact, basically (I think) I allow the pivot and depth of my hands to set the approach arc. I was ATTEMPTING to find out if this is a good thing to focus on or not.

As far as I am concerned this has nothing to do with hands-controlled-pivot or ass-controlled-hands or any other phrase.

I also don't believe that "What you are doing is as good a "key" as any for this method. " is a good answer, it is maybe a good non-answer though. I was looking for some assistance in my understanding of the need for depth at the top of the backswing to aid in my understanding of my own swing, but I guess I'm looking in the wrong place....

I'll rephrase the question again.... In ANY swing why is it a good idea to have depth at the top of the swing
 
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MizunoJoe

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"...I really just rotate and whip the ball away..." - 'Pivot Controlled Hands' leaps out of that sentence. TGM does prescribe Extensor Action, which stretches the left arm with the right hand/arm.

Also, I'd be very concerned about a stroke pattern with which I could NOT do a practice swing.
 
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mb6606

New
Squishband maybe you need to post pics or video of your swing??
I am sure you will gets lots of feedback.
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by Squishband

As far as I am concerned this has nothing to do with hands-controlled-pivot or ass-controlled-hands or any other phrase.

I also don't believe that "What you are doing is as good a "key" as any for this method. " is a good answer, it is maybe a good non-answer though. I was looking for some assistance in my understanding of the need for depth at the top of the backswing to aid in my understanding of my own swing, but I guess I'm looking in the wrong place....
Click to expand...

Ass -controlled Hands.

Man, that's tempting.

Oh, so very tempting.

But, nah...

Let's not go there.

[V]
 
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Squishband

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Ah, MizunoJoe finally something to debate about....
Like the look of those new MP-32's BTW

In my original post I said that I only remember to do this if I am hitting it bad... and it seems to work - why does it seem to work????? I go months without trying this..

I think I said...
<EXCLAMATION emphasis=Strong>
I very often forget this (for months at at a time) and after some poor shots am suddenly reminded of it and it always seems fixes me right up.
</EXCLAMATION>

I also said this... "Over the ball I have no swing thoughts but the feeling is there and I really just rotate and whip the ball away...generally ballflight is pretty flat and the divot follows the ball nicely..."

I think that should HOPEFULLY and FINALLY explain that this is NOT my NORMAL SWING, I use it AS A BANDAID. Now whether it is pivot-controlled hands or not is IRRELEVANT.

I wanted to know why it WORKS and whether I should consider it as something I should strive to do to my normal swing.
Also I was interested in why it fixed me right up, did it fix my GEOMETRY or did it fix my PHYSICS, and more importantly start some interesting thoughts about what the purpose of the backswing really is....

Geez... and I thought I was a good communicator, the point is... DEPTH. Why is extensor action good or more importantly what fault is it fixing... WHEW!

Please... I am not angry at anyone... merely trying to learn something new...
 
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MizunoJoe

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You have to get sufficiently back, up and in order to get the right shoulder in the proper place for the downswing, so maybe this "depth" move is doing it for you.

PS - Nothing Mizuno EVER makes will equal the MP-29s.
 
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Triad

New
quote:
Geez... and I thought I was a good communicator, the point is... DEPTH. Why is extensor action good or more importantly what fault is it fixing... WHEW!
Click to expand...

Well, my humble understanding is that extensor action is good because it A) Helps maintain the correct radius of the swing and B) Helps to maintain the structural integrity of the flying wedges/power package.

Since you didn't state what your 'poor shots' were that extensor action seemed to fix, then I cannot really say how it helps. If you were hitting your shots fat or thin, then maintaining the constant radius of the primary lever assembly through extensor action would certainly help.

I can't address your question about Depth, since I am a little unclear exactly what you mean by depth. You say that your hands are 'behind your head', could you be a bit more clear? If the ball is at 12:00, are you saying that your hands push further towards 6:00?

STL,
Triad
 
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Squishband

New
Edz, I haven't looked at the end position on tape but yes in hindsight it is into a Haganesque kind of position. I am definitely pushing towards 3. I am striving to get as much distance between my left shoulder and my hands as possible.

Triad: My poor shots that this fixes are generally thinned and too low ballflight and a pull hook. I also don't get proper compression so they end up short. I hit maybe 2 shots extending my arms like this and then I go back to normal and things are good again.

MizunoJoe: I have to disagree, in my opinion the best Mizuno's ever were my set of blueprinted custom ground and perfectly flexed and spined S400 MP/TP-7's that were stolen from my car in St. Andrews, Kingdom of Fife, Scotland in 1996. They even had my initials on the hosel, so if you see them....


I think that I am fixing my approach arc by doing this, i.e. getting my hands closer to my right hip on the downswing, my hand action also seems to be much more quiet and I regain the feeling of lag.
 
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EdZ

New
when you get to that position, are you still maintaining a flat left wrist, or do you have 'Hogan hands' at the top?

either way, part of the reason this is helpful is that you are 'setting the wedge' more solidly (flat wrist or not) Your hands will tend to work more as a unit through the ball, easier to keep lag.

Getting 'under' the shaft is another benefit of this type of position - the butt of the club moving near straight back/through, getting the hands 'under and up' and keeping the club 'out in front' more

It also helps keep the hands and chest moving together, one of the big keys IMO. When in this type of position, the thought of 'hitting the ball with the back of the left shoulder' is a very, very good feel to have.

See the swing as simple as the movement of the left shoulder under the chin on the backswing, right shoulder under on the through swing

That position will almost 'require' less of a flat lead wrist at the top, and a bit more forearm rotation through, certainly full roll
 
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Squishband

New
Edz, Thank you for that erudite explanation....

I have (since I started this thread) played with this feel. I have a very slightly arched left wrist at the top. I definitely noticed that it is easier to set and keep the lag...

About the full roll.... I noticed with this type of move that I was impacting the ball alarmingly close to the hosel, still feels solid and flies well but very close to the sh*nks.

So I used the great Hogan's trick of addressing the ball off the toe and clubhead about an inch back... I noticed a slight improvement but not enough to satisfy me...

I then experimented with opening the clubface a touch at address - no improvement - so finally I concentrated on swinging the hosel/shaft slightly more inside the ball and allowing the left arm to roll as it wanted... and finally et voila! I was hitting it out of the absolute center of the clubface...

the best decription I can give is that it feels like shutting the clubface on the ball.

I noticed also that this swing is VERY sensitive to ball position, put the ball slightly back in your stance and you'll hit it fat - everytime...

The swing feels very easy - no strain at all. Distance is good but I need to experiment with the left wrist at the top as I hit a strong draw with this move and when I move the ball back too much a full hook...
 
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EdZ

New
An additional feel that will help you with this type of motion is your hip motion. Easier to create a cross line hip motion. Feel like you 'sit on your right cheek' at the top and then fire your right knee at the ball on the downswing - pure Hogan move, and very effective.

Yes, I know the feel you describe - seem like a very open face, but boy does the hit feel 'solid' as you close it down through the shot.

If you are going to make this kind of move, you will find that a slight 'cup' (gasp say all the TGM folks) at the top will be best. Lets you really fire the forearms. The shank feel is likely from the arched wrist - for 'this' kind of move, flat to slight cup is easier, but you must always use full roll. Smooth complete roll in synch with the chest.
 
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