Divot after ball and flipping

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I need to get some swings in on a good high speed camera to confirm, but looking at some other recent video yesterday...I'm either flipping or coming very close with very little forward shaft lean.

But...the majority of the time I have no problem making ball/turf contact. Divot may even be 2-3 inches in front of the ball.

How common or likely is it to be a flipper and still make ball/turf contact?
 
Without seeing the video sounds like a OTT swing with a major swipe in breaking down the left wrist and causing the flip. Is the divot severely left or slight? Remember its out to the ball then left after impact.
 
You have learned to "time" the flip. I'm guessing that you shoot well on one day and poorly on other days. The "flip" is largely due to a poor pivot. In other words, the body stops turning. Since the body stops, you have to flip in order to get the ball airborne.
 
I played D-1 golf with a flip and compressed the ball. Although low point control is still my biggest issue, one can flip and still hit ball first and then divot consistently. But, it messes with the clubface, path and low point too much and that's why good golfers avoid it.

Getting rid of the flip is mostly a situation where one needs to pivot better in the downswing and properly sequence their downswing.






3JACK
 
I rarely take a divot with anything more than a P-wedge and more often than not, don't take one with even a sandwedge. I suspect I too am a flipper. I'm fairly certain it is because I have a poor pivot. I have worked on many of the fundamentals Brian talks about in COFF, but it is hard to translate that into my full swing.

Would practicing with the ball in the front of a divot help me? That seems to get the best results for me. Any other tips?
 
jeff, you could possibly be a flipper. But you may also not flip. Tom Watson = not a divot taker. Moe Norman went years without even breaking tees and basically clipped the grass. He wasn't a flipper either. For me, I do have to take a divot or I would probably wind up flipping.




3JACK
 
I am a Flipper/Divot taker as well but a poor contact ball striker. I once shot 54-36 on the same nine holes in the same round. It sure does suck. :(
 
jeff, you could possibly be a flipper. But you may also not flip. Tom Watson = not a divot taker. Moe Norman went years without even breaking tees and basically clipped the grass. He wasn't a flipper either. For me, I do have to take a divot or I would probably wind up flipping.




3JACK

Thanks 3Jack. When I get a chance to look at video of my swing with say a 6 or 5 iron, the club is basically vertical at impact but my left wrist is flat. It could be a mini-flip or maybe I just lack a good enough pivot to carry my hands to the proper impact position. I'm starting to think my clubs my be fit improperly. I'm 6'2" 1/2 playing Titleist 695CB's 1/2 inch long, standard lie S300's.

Practicing with the ball in the front of a divot seems to be the most effective way for me to take a divot after the ball and damn does impact feel flush.
 
Sounds like I'm not alone with this affliction....I can make a divot in front of the ball with long or short irons but my distance and ball flight tell me I'm flipping it. Now, I might have a mini flip where the shaft is almost vertical at impact but I suspect I'm not getting the forward shaft lean.

Back to the drawing board, I've really tried to work on my pivot so I'm not sure if I'm stalling. Maybe it's just years of focusing impact at the ball, got to get those hands forward. I have a tour striker on the way, maybe it will help.
 
Sounds like I'm not alone with this affliction....I can make a divot in front of the ball with long or short irons but my distance and ball flight tell me I'm flipping it. Now, I might have a mini flip where the shaft is almost vertical at impact but I suspect I'm not getting the forward shaft lean.

Back to the drawing board, I've really tried to work on my pivot so I'm not sure if I'm stalling. Maybe it's just years of focusing impact at the ball, got to get those hands forward. I have a tour striker on the way, maybe it will help.

May just be that your clubface is open. Try a bit of wedding ring up.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Have someone help you keep your head from getting in front of the ball and make sure your ball isnt too far back and you'll find out fast if your a flipper
 
Have someone help you keep your head from getting in front of the ball and make sure your ball isnt too far back and you'll find out fast if your a flipper

Kevin, could lack of flexibility make it physically impossible to keep the head behind the ball while pivoting onto and around the front leg enough to have forward shaft lean?

Or put another way....is this proper impact position possible for EVERY golfer regardless of physical condition....so that even an 80 year old should expect to be able to get into the proper impact position?

Just wondering if you've had students that "couldn't", so instead they make some compensation.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Absolutely. (BTW, are you 80?) Some people just cant get any axis tilt or delay and need to cover it with a higher right shoulder. Just expect some limitations on ballflight.
 
I'm not 80, but I'm also not very flexible...at all. Just wondering if that could make it impossible to really get in this ideal impact position.

If my pivot is moving my hands to a spot forward of the ball (and the ball is forward in my stance, not in the middle or back), I'm quite sure that all of my weight would be on my left foot and I doubt I could keep my head behind the ball (thinking of the Brian's Trevino logo look).

I would probably be hanging back on my right foot with my head that far behind the ball.
 
Have someone help you keep your head from getting in front of the ball and make sure your ball isnt too far back and you'll find out fast if your a flipper

Hey Kevin.

Considering a very Manzella neutral move. What would be the drills or positions you would have someone practice if they do move their head over the ball and/or ball position is too far back.

Would you have them take iron swings with a forward ball position with head behind ball and divot well after contact?

I guess what I am asking is. What is the proper practice regimen for this problem.
 
The thing is, that impact position with ball forward of center, hands past the ball, head well behind ball AND weight on left leg/hip and the degree you can pull it off has a lot to do with physical ability and flexibility.

I'm betting for some, the only way to have weight left and hands forward will be to have the head and upper body covering or almost covering the ball at impact.
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
This flipping business, is really weird..some of my videos show a bowed left wrist and no release of the club at all...looked great on video, unfortunately I hit it nowhere. Understanding that applying force across the shaft with the right elbow unbending helps a lot

Pivot and right elbow unbending = killed golf ball.
 
The thing is, that impact position with ball forward of center, hands past the ball, head well behind ball AND weight on left leg/hip and the degree you can pull it off has a lot to do with physical ability and flexibility.

I'm betting for some, the only way to have weight left and hands forward will be to have the head and upper body covering or almost covering the ball at impact.

Can you pose in a more or less good impact position? If you can, then I bet it's not flexibility issue. I used to think the same and now I know it was not the case, at least not for me.

In my case (and it's still work in progress, probably for ever):

I had to learn to pivot better. I was not capable isolating rotation of shoulders and hips. Sitting down keeping hips stationary my shoulders would rotate only about 30deg. I thought that it was a flexibility issue, when in actual fact I was not using the right muscles. Now I get shoulders to rotate about 60deg. Definitely flexibility issues still, but what a difference in just by learning how. Same thing rotating hips while keeping shoulders stationary. I'll never be a belly dancer, but at least it moves now.

I was trying to get more axis tilt in downswing by sliding my hips left, or even setting them left to begin with, so much that I was restricting hip rotation. Pressure was getting to the outside of my left foot too early. I had to feel that my left leg would resist hip slide and try to get axis tilt by pulling right shoulder down instead. Also added letting right knee move forward, which I was holding back too much. Btw. I do think weight should be on the left leg at impact. Dynamics in a good swing put pressure on your left foot, but static weight distribution is very much on the right foot.

I could not get my hips open at impact whatever I tried. I was always coming a bit over the top and hitting fades. Finally what helped was a feel at start-down that I really kept my right shoulder back while pulling it down, so that my overactive hands/arms would not kill my chances of pivot working. My arms just needed to be so much more behind my pivot than what I was used to. I felt scary in the beginning - how can I hit the ball from there?
I had been able to do it quite a while with very short swing, like what Brian demonstrates in the Flipper, where you hit with pivot only. It just always fell apart with anything close full swing.

Head forward is a symptom of some these issues. You're trying to hit the ball and not turf before it, so body moves forward to guarantee this. I played one season with extreme version of this. I was able to hit the ball first most of the time but divots were very very deep. I think the overactive hands/arms do the same - afraid to hit it fat, so they do their work instinctively.

I've tried to find the right perception of what really should happen during the swing. To me this perception is how body, arms, hands and club move looking from my eyes. For a long time this was totally wrong. Now I think it's better. Now the good shots start to come almost right-away, when before it always took quite a while to find it. And the good shots are much better now than ever before. And I can be head back, without hanging back.
 
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