Divot direction after impact

[ukhacker]

Hi All

A while back I bought the Swing Machine Golf book, and every now and again the author (Paul Wilson) sends out follow up e-mails with additional info. Recently he sent one out about divots and where they should point after impact.

Here is a section of this e-mail:

quote:The pros all take divots, so you should too. The perfect divot is actually taken
AFTER the ball is struck. It's approximately half an inch deep and evenly
skimmed off the surface. Its direction is slightly to the LEFT of the target
because of the swing being circular; the club approaches the ball from inside
the target line, squares up as it makes contact with the ball, then enters the
ground and takes a divot as it starts moving back inside the target line (i.e.
to the left of your target line).

Now this didn't seem right to me. From my experience with TGM the low point is below the left shoulder, which means the divot will be after the ball, pointing slightly to the right field. So I queried this with Paul Wilson. Here is the reply I got:

quote:What you are trying to describe could only be achieved if you were standing on one leg. If you were standing on one leg you would be able to make a perfect circle with your golf swing. This is because you have a single axis between your head, body and leg. As the club swings around your body, it would descend to the ball making contact and creating the farthest point away from your body and the bottom point of the swing arc. Immediately after the ball is hit, the club would be on its way up again. This swing would never take a divot because you are not getting lower to the ground but it would produce the down and up pattern you are describing. This would replicate the swing of Iron Byron because the machine has a perfect single axis.

The divot in a human golf swing is slightly to the left because after the ball is hit the club is still moving downward. This is because your body tilts to the right through impact because you have 2 legs on the ground. As soon as you put the other leg down you have 2 bottoms and 1 top to an axis. On the way into your backswing your head will move to the right allowing you to create your first axis. As you unwind with your lower body to start the downswing, your upper body will tilt backwards (to the right) through impact. Because of this backwards tilt, your body is closer to the ground than it was in your set up. This means that when the ball is released from the clubface the club is still descending. So, the bottom point of the swing arc does not occur until a few inches after the ball leaves the clubface.

At the moment the ball leaves the clubface, the arc may be the farthest point away from your body but it is not the widest point of the arc. The widest point of the arc is seen at approx. 2 feet after impact. If you flip to page 180 then flip to page 196 you will see that my arms are fully extended again in my swing. At the moment the club hits the ball, there is still a slight angle between the clubshaft and my left arm. This means that the arc is not at its widest point. Once the ball is long gone my arms extend to the point I mentioned (approx. 2 feet after impact).

Hope you understand the proper divot from this explanation. Here's a summary:

1. Your body tilts to the right through impact when you uncoil with your lower body. This puts you closer to the ground than you were when you set up. This means that your swing arc will not fit through the space provided so it takes a divot.

2. The moment the ball is released from the clubface the club is at is farthest point away from you but not at the bottom point of
the arc. This is because there is still an angle between the left arm and clubshaft at impact.

3. After the ball is released from the clubface, the club is still moving downward. This means the club reaches the farthest point away from you but it is still descending after the ball is hit.

4. The widest point of the arc is at approx.. 2 feet after impact because this is where both arms are extended again in your swing. If you started with your arms extended you pre-determined the width of your arc. The club will want to get back to this point (maximum point of inertia) if your arms are powerless.

Take a look at the picture I attached to see what happens just past impact. This is the only one I could find that shows the club in freeze frame at impact. You can see that immediately after the ball is hit the clubface is moving down and left.

Best wishes,

Paul Wilson

Does this all seem right to you all??

 

[EdZ]

Yep - widest point of the arc is both arms straight, just past impact. The implication of this is that the left shoulder is NOT the center of the motion, therefore the flail is not the left arm/club. The center of motion is the base of neck/top of spine between the shoulders and both arms 'hug' the flail. The flail being a point of force located in a line from the swing center to PP1. The farther forward the ball, the more axis tilt needed. The reverse is also true.

 

[MizunoJoe]

He's promoting hitting the ball AT low point rather than BEFORE. An on-plane strike of the ball before low point is down/out/forward, and will not give a divot pointing left if the left wrist is flat and the hands are leading the clubhead.

 

[Archie Swivel]

The fact that he said, "After the ball is released from the clubface, the club is still moving downward. This means the club reaches the farthest point away from you but it is still descending after the ball is hit" leads me to believe that he is not promoting hitting the ball at low point.

 

[MizunoJoe]

If the divot points left, and he is hitting the ball before low point, then either 1) he is hitting on an out-to-in plane, or 2) he has a bent plane line.

 

[Archie Swivel]

Hey MJ, I agree with you in your geometry analysis but maintain that that's inconsistent with what Paul Wilson said. I do recall that Tiger in his book 'How I play Golf' said that his divots point slightly to the left, but I'll have to recheck that when I get home.

 

[golfie]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Yep - widest point of the arc is both arms straight, just past impact. The implication of this is that the left shoulder is NOT the center of the motion, therefore the flail is not the left arm/club. The center of motion is the base of neck/top of spine between the shoulders and both arms 'hug' the flail. The flail being a point of force located in a line from the swing center to PP1. The farther forward the ball, the more axis tilt needed. The reverse is also true.

Edz,

I have read many of your posts and have found many useful thoughts and ideas therein. I do have to wonder, however, why you have decided it important to come up with a whole new definition for the well defined term "flail" A flail is not "a point of force located in a line from the swing center to PP1." It is simply a "An instrument ...consisting of a wooden staff or handle, at the
end of which a stouter and shorter pole or club, called a
swipe, is so hung as to swing freely." (Websters)

Golfie

 

[Burner]

A flail is =======0======= like so, where ========== is the arm, 0 is the link (the hands) and ========== is the club shaft.

An in line flail condition (lowest point of the arc) would be some way after impact whereas the upper part of the flail, arm, would preceed the lower part of the flail, club shaft, into impact by varying degrees according to the respective lengths of the =========== parts of the flail and the balls position in the players stance.

This is what I think Wilson is alluding to.

Divots, especially with the shorter clubs will, of necessity, curve left. With longer clubs they will more likely start straightish and curve left due to the clubhead being so very briefly on a, so called, straight plane line.

 

[mb6606]

Would not the intial part of the divot be dead straight to the plane line and then at the end last inch of the (lets say 6" divot) divot go left as the clubface closes and the swing arcs back to the inside???

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by golfie

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Yep - widest point of the arc is both arms straight, just past impact. The implication of this is that the left shoulder is NOT the center of the motion, therefore the flail is not the left arm/club. The center of motion is the base of neck/top of spine between the shoulders and both arms 'hug' the flail. The flail being a point of force located in a line from the swing center to PP1. The farther forward the ball, the more axis tilt needed. The reverse is also true.

Edz,

I have read many of your posts and have found many useful thoughts and ideas therein. I do have to wonder, however, why you have decided it important to come up with a whole new definition for the well defined term "flail" A flail is not "a point of force located in a line from the swing center to PP1." It is simply a "An instrument ...consisting of a wooden staff or handle, at the
end of which a stouter and shorter pole or club, called a
swipe, is so hung as to swing freely." (Websters)

Golfie

If you swing with your left hand/arm only, you have a left arm flail (left shoulder center). If you swing with your right hand only, you have a right arm flail(right shoulder center). If you swing with both hands on the club, where is the flail and center?

I'm not redefining what a flail is, not at all. Simply that when you think of the segements of a flail, it can be forces rather than a 'solid' object. Think about the 'forces' involved. You have a hinge at the tip of the triangle which can function with left hand only, or right hand only. When both hands combine, you have the 'force' balanced between the left and right sides of the triangle, thus in the example of:

===============0===============

You have the first link as the line from swing center to your hands, the 0, the hinge, your hands/wrists and the second link ======= the club.

When you have both hands, the forces have to balance. You are 'swinging', pulling, on the left side of the triangle, or 'hitting', pushing, the right side of the triangle. In both cases you are applying force to the hinge '0'. Pulling until you can push. You 'can' hit and swing, pull and push, in the same motion, or you can do one (simpler and recommended).

So when I speak of the 'new' flail, it is the balance of the right and left push/pull on the hinge. The '0' is the 'point of force', PP1, that you swing or hit, that must be ahead of the clubhead or even with it to both arms straight or you have throwaway.

You see it at both arms striaght - the =====0====== with the first segment from the swing center to the hands, the 0.

The clubhead should not pass the 'tip of the triangle' '0' - until you are at both arms straight or you have throwaway.

In essence, sustaining the line of compression longer than if the swing center is the left shoulder.

At both arms straight, you have the 'rotation point' (horizontal hinge/swivel) - swinging or 'mirror point' (angled hinge - bend/arch)- hitting.