Does this happen to anybody?

[wdking]

I spend a lot of time, maybe too much, on indoor practice. Part of my training includes a Swing Speed Radar, and it indicates that I can consistently swing an 6 iron at 82 mph, 7 iron at 76 mph and driver at 108 mph.
But when I play, I am hard pressed to hit 7 iron 150 yards, and all the other clubs distances are significantly off. I currently play off a 5.9 index, and my pattern is more NHA, which cured the below plane issues I fought for most of my golfing "life".
I have worked with Mike Jacobs here in NY, and went to 2 day golf school with Brian and Mike. I also own all of their videos.

On the course, the ball sounds compressed, looks good when it starts out, and then falls out of the sky too soon. My typical misses are slight bleeding fades. The occasional high flip hook appears as well. My divots could point more left, but all in all, my motion "feels" good, I am always in balance, and am surprised by the results. Then this results in more effort to swing harder, and we all know that doesn't work.

I have changed equipment, gone to regular flex shafts (which didn't work), gone to see MJ...but am still scratching my head.

Sorry for the long winded post, but does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,

 

[dbl]

Are you swinging indoors with or without a ball?

 

[wdking]

Are you swinging indoors with or without a ball?

I always hit balls, practicing a flat left wrist, swivel etc. Sometimes I hit as many as 500 balls per day.

 

[GPM1985]

It sounds like you might need to swing left a little more, but if you're hitting the ball solid there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I've played a couple times with the head pro at the club I caddy at. He hits a pretty low draw, never takes a divot, and has what I would call a pretty shallow swing. He shoots some pretty good scores as well. He described a similar problem to yours, saying that the ball just drops out of the air with the longer irons. He's tried the KBS tour shafts and is going to reshaft his irons with them in order to get the ball up a little more with the long irons.

You might want to try getting on a Trackman. You'll get to see exactly where you're at in terms of launch, spin, attack angle, etc. It would be great if you had a competent pro there to interpret the data for you and made recommendations as far as your swing and potential equipment changes are concerned. You might need a swing adjustment, an equipment change, or both.

The point is you shouldn't have to guess at what's wrong. Knowing saves a lot of time and effort. You're obviously putting a lot of work in and it would be a shame for you not to see some improvement. Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it figured out.

 

[ggsjpc]

Sounds like the clubhead isn't going as fast as the indoor radar is telling you or on the course it isn't going as fast as indoors. Do you feel the clubhead shoot out on it's own or are you making it come out?

 

[ej20]

sounds about right.The guy in this video hits his 7 iron 146 yards carry with 82 mph clubhead speed.

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[softconsult]

If Jacobs and Manzella didn't fix you, then it would seem to me that random guesses at what will help you have a potential for further confusion.

Seems to me that knowing how far you hit each iron is far more important that some magic target distance. I play in a senior league twice a week, and am often paired in the lead cart with two scratch players. I am two clubs longer than them. They are hitting 8 irons at 130, I'm hitting wedge. They normally whip me by 3 to 8 strokes. So these guys would hit 7 irons in your 140 range. They consistently hit their distances. One of these guys plays with 25 year old Pings and every iron shot is a nice high fade. He could care less about hitting it farther.

Mid-season this year I was beating balls on the three off days. I quit practicing so much and my play improved. I was wearing myself out. If indoor means hitting into a net, then how do you know good results from bad results?

Finally, 5.9 ain't half bad. Want to trade?

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

I always hit balls, practicing a flat left wrist, swivel etc. Sometimes I hit as many as 500 balls per day.

Unless you are in great shape, 500 balls per day is an awful lot. You may want to include a couple of rest days to allow your muscles to recover.

 

[wdking]

Sounds like the clubhead isn't going as fast as the indoor radar is telling you or on the course it isn't going as fast as indoors. Do you feel the clubhead shoot out on it's own or are you making it come out?

No, I don't feel the clubhead shoot out. As a former underplaner, I fight a flip, so maybe I'm trying to combat that.
Thanks for this.

 

[wdking]

It sounds like you might need to swing left a little more, but if you're hitting the ball solid there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I've played a couple times with the head pro at the club I caddy at. He hits a pretty low draw, never takes a divot, and has what I would call a pretty shallow swing. He shoots some pretty good scores as well. He described a similar problem to yours, saying that the ball just drops out of the air with the longer irons. He's tried the KBS tour shafts and is going to reshaft his irons with them in order to get the ball up a little more with the long irons.

You might want to try getting on a Trackman. You'll get to see exactly where you're at in terms of launch, spin, attack angle, etc. It would be great if you had a competent pro there to interpret the data for you and made recommendations as far as your swing and potential equipment changes are concerned. You might need a swing adjustment, an equipment change, or both.

The point is you shouldn't have to guess at what's wrong. Knowing saves a lot of time and effort. You're obviously putting a lot of work in and it would be a shame for you not to see some improvement. Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it figured out.

I appreciate your input. I'm sure we have a Trackman up here in NY, but IMO the only competent pro I know is Mike Jacobs. I'll keep working.

 

[wdking]

sounds about right.The guy in this video hits his 7 iron 146 yards carry with 82 mph clubhead speed.

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I used to hit 7 iron 165. I bought the radar for winter practice, and "according" to them, the conversion factor is 2.2 to 2.4 yds/mph, so an 80 mph 6 iron would be between 176 and 192 yards.

But nevertheless, it is frustrating to feel like I pured and 8 iron from 150 yards out and it comes up 15 yards short.

Thanks for the info.

 

[vjsinger]

I have gone through this recently a little, I've combated it by grinding it on the range by trying to hit low burning wedges with more forward lean. I make half swings with the sand wedge trying to hit the ball really low with a full swing finish. So, go half back in BS, in DS feel like your glove hand faces the ground early and pivot left aggressively. Basically you turn the wedge into an 8-iron..hope this may help.

 

[footwedge]

I used to hit 7 iron 165. I bought the radar for winter practice, and "according" to them, the conversion factor is 2.2 to 2.4 yds/mph, so an 80 mph 6 iron would be between 176 and 192 yards.

But nevertheless, it is frustrating to feel like I pured and 8 iron from 150 yards out and it comes up 15 yards short.

Thanks for the info.

Loosing 15 yds. with an 8 iron is a lot, that radar conversion has too much error in it from 176 - 192 yds., that's more than a club difference, you would think radar was a little more accurate.

If you have the same swing speed as before and the same equipment assuming your lofts haven't changed with a 7 iron 165 and now 150 then it has to be a ball contact problem. What's causing it , could be like you said a small flip/ scoop or slightly fat.

Just guessing, but i had the same problem, lots of clubhead speed with the driver and hit it a good distance, but the irons the same problem as your having. I had a lack of good compression due to a flip.

With the driver it didn't hurt so much, because with the ball on a tee you can get away with more. Try hitting your driver off the ground, no tee, you'll find out if your underplane or flipping etc.

 

[niblick1]

I spend a lot of time, maybe too much, on indoor practice. Part of my training includes a Swing Speed Radar, and it indicates that I can consistently swing an 6 iron at 82 mph, 7 iron at 76 mph and driver at 108 mph.
But when I play, I am hard pressed to hit 7 iron 150 yards, and all the other clubs distances are significantly off. I currently play off a 5.9 index, and my pattern is more NHA, which cured the below plane issues I fought for most of my golfing "life".
I have worked with Mike Jacobs here in NY, and went to 2 day golf school with Brian and Mike. I also own all of their videos.

On the course, the ball sounds compressed, looks good when it starts out, and then falls out of the sky too soon. My typical misses are slight bleeding fades. The occasional high flip hook appears as well. My divots could point more left, but all in all, my motion "feels" good, I am always in balance, and am surprised by the results. Then this results in more effort to swing harder, and we all know that doesn't work.

I have changed equipment, gone to regular flex shafts (which didn't work), gone to see MJ...but am still scratching my head.

Sorry for the long winded post, but does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,

A combination of leakage and path? I will bet it is both. Everything you describe but the divot direction (which is admittedly huge) makes me think you might even be swinging too far left. Get a trackman analysis by someone good to see if it is path.

I was swinging too far left, with too much pp4 contact through impact, and it destroyed my distance and my misses were spinny, weak cuts - and when I tried to swing more right, leakage appeared. And my "good shots" were high, accurate and very spinny short shots that gave me the illusion of clubface control. Since getting the "way too far left path diagnosis" at the first Manzella Trackman seminar in Maryland and making adjustments that Brian and Kevin suggested, and also realizing my leakage problem that the "swing way left and use pp4 pattern" covered up, my game has improved significantly. I'm more than 2 clubs longer than two months ago.

Get a trackman analysis from someone who knows their stuff.

 

[dsmith2296]

For me, this ties in with my post here:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...s-divot-neutral-shallow-right.html#post152723

With NHA, I hit nice looking iron shots when I executed, but my misses were spinny cuts. I'm not knocking NHA, but when I try to get lots of lag and lean with it, I am too steep with my AoA.

Your post is almost what I posted a couple of days ago before I started trying to get more lean with less divot. - 7-irons on the range today were 163-168 -ish versus 150-ish with NHA.

 

[wdking]

Further my woes

I cannot hit a low push hook/draw. I can't even draw the ball if I wanted to, unless I'm using the TM Burner irons I have with a lot of offset, and even with them it's weak at best. I practice with a towel plane board both inside and outside the ball...and don't hit it except the inside one after contact...like Brian says. It's possible that I'm holding on, probably to stop the flip, which Mike Jacobs detected on video last month. But where does it end? I try to have a FLW through impact and wipe it or shoot the shaft and hit high pull hooks, where 7 iron goes 180 and 20 yards left of the target. It's like my downswing is on plane to the ball, then wobbles off the plane after impact and travels down the target line, then climbs and finally goes left.
It's really frustrating to hit almost every fairway during a round and then miss the green, usually short, 90 % of the time.
I really appreciate all the help.

 

[vjsinger]

For me, Lag pressure is a big key. At the top I feel a little settling of the clubhead and arms, but not much pressure, the club still feels really light. About halfway down that all changes and I feel a ton of pressure in my hands in PP1-3. Keep the pivot and hands moving forward.

 

[wdking]

I like this a lot

I have gone through this recently a little, I've combated it by grinding it on the range by trying to hit low burning wedges with more forward lean. I make half swings with the sand wedge trying to hit the ball really low with a full swing finish. So, go half back in BS, in DS feel like your glove hand faces the ground early and pivot left aggressively. Basically you turn the wedge into an 8-iron..hope this may help.

VJ I know you get to hit off grass, but here in NY everything is astroturf, unless you pony up the big bucks for one of the elite country clubs, who have 50 acre ranges. I'd like to hit that burning wedge, but the mats make the club bounce so you hit it higher on the face, and it spins alot.
I like and appreciate your ideas, and you have a real good motion (saw it on MJ's site).

Thanks,

 

[footwedge]

I cannot hit a low push hook/draw. I can't even draw the ball if I wanted to, unless I'm using the TM Burner irons I have with a lot of offset, and even with them it's weak at best. I practice with a towel plane board both inside and outside the ball...and don't hit it except the inside one after contact...like Brian says. It's possible that I'm holding on, probably to stop the flip, which Mike Jacobs detected on video last month. But where does it end? and wipe it or shoot the shaft and hit high pull hooks, where 7 iron goes 180 and 20 yards left of the target. It's like my downswing is on plane to the ball, then wobbles off the plane after impact and travels down the target line, then climbs and finally goes left.
It's really frustrating to hit almost every fairway during a round and then miss the green, usually short, 90 % of the time.
I really appreciate all the help.

I try to have a FLW through impact .[/QUOTE]



From that description Brian's probably right, your holding on ,creating tension through your arms and hands. You can't whip the club, only steer it. Probably due to trying to cure a flip. Trying to control too much.

In other words your killing c.f. and you have to take over it's job. Swing #4 and let c.f. take care of the wrist action. You'll be a lot happier with the distance/ result. I'm sure Mike can help you with that.

 

[wdking]

How about too much down?

Just because I have the need to beat this horse to death, could the spinny wipes be caused by opening the clubface through impact and hitting too much down on it? My divots are usually straight, and I do chunk a fair share of iron shots.

Anybody ever fix these little critters? How?

Thanks