Double shift
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golfbulldog
New
My understanding is basic but...
It is a shift from one plane to another during the backswing ( ie from original clubshaft plane to a different plane at the top of the backswing) and then a shift from the top of the backswing plane to another plane for impact.
eg.
At address most players start off with the clubshaft at the "hands only plane" or "elbow plane "( if same plane as hands).
Now check their top of the backswing position and they are often on the plane of the turned shoulder. Steeper than hands or elbow plane.
They must have shifted from one to the other therefor a single shift in the backswing.
This is almost normal for all full swing golfers of athletic ability beyond a potato.
On downswing if you stay on the turned shoulder plane ( TSP ) your shaft at impact will be on TSP.
This is a single shift swing
If you move on downswing from TSP to elbow or hands only plane then this is the second shift - hence "double shift"
You can make this more accurate, and potentially more difficult to grasp, if you talk about sweet spot plane rather than shaft plane but hard to see sweet spot plane on photos - easy to see shaft plane.
Remember that for Golfing Machine perfection , even during the shift in plane the shaft should still point at the straight plane line. This rarely happens in any golf swing - even pros. They still shift planes as per description above but are often off plane while doing so.
It is a shift from one plane to another during the backswing ( ie from original clubshaft plane to a different plane at the top of the backswing) and then a shift from the top of the backswing plane to another plane for impact.
eg.
At address most players start off with the clubshaft at the "hands only plane" or "elbow plane "( if same plane as hands).
Now check their top of the backswing position and they are often on the plane of the turned shoulder. Steeper than hands or elbow plane.
They must have shifted from one to the other therefor a single shift in the backswing.
This is almost normal for all full swing golfers of athletic ability beyond a potato.
On downswing if you stay on the turned shoulder plane ( TSP ) your shaft at impact will be on TSP.
This is a single shift swing
If you move on downswing from TSP to elbow or hands only plane then this is the second shift - hence "double shift"
You can make this more accurate, and potentially more difficult to grasp, if you talk about sweet spot plane rather than shaft plane but hard to see sweet spot plane on photos - easy to see shaft plane.
Remember that for Golfing Machine perfection , even during the shift in plane the shaft should still point at the straight plane line. This rarely happens in any golf swing - even pros. They still shift planes as per description above but are often off plane while doing so.
Review the pic on the first page of this thread.
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6882
Backswing: shift 1 up to turned shoulder plane,
Downswing: shift 2 down to elbow plane.
There are bizarre arrangements (and the book lists some of them), but that is a pretty standard double shift.
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6882
Backswing: shift 1 up to turned shoulder plane,
Downswing: shift 2 down to elbow plane.
There are bizarre arrangements (and the book lists some of them), but that is a pretty standard double shift.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
That is something else...an "X" classification.
As far as what a Double-Shift is, it is a swing from the elbow plane to the turned shoulder a to the top and a shift back down to the elbow by release point and through the swivel.
Ala, Michael David Finney.
As far as what a Double-Shift is, it is a swing from the elbow plane to the turned shoulder a to the top and a shift back down to the elbow by release point and through the swivel.
Ala, Michael David Finney.
tongzilla
New
Brian Manzella said:
I think a lot of the "Double Shifters" actually start from the Hands Only Plane, then shift up to the Turned Shoulder Plane at the Top, then back to the Elbow Plane at Impact (ala Michael Finney at Canton). Technically an "X" classification but we still call it a Double Shift.
Mr Kelley's reference for describing most shifts is the Elbow Plane. And, elsewhere he refers to the Elbow Plane as the address position most subconsciously used. Also, in the Golf definition for Inclined Plane he states "through the waist." These could suggest a preference for the Elbow Plane and a deference to plane shifts. However, in the two basic stroke patterns provided he selects the TSP and a zero shift. There does not seem to be much support or example for a zero shift.
DRW
DRW
Curtis, for that that pic I linked to, if you make the gross simplification that a person with standard posture and address was there and the club started on the elbow plane, then we'd be in the double shift category. But as is the case, the golfer is too notorious for that simplification! 
Perhaps these will make people be happier, and being blurry may hide flaws in the analysis. The top red line is not the Tuned Shoulder Plane, unless there has been an accomodation for the camera not looking down the line.
Perhaps these will make people be happier, and being blurry may hide flaws in the analysis. The top red line is not the Tuned Shoulder Plane, unless there has been an accomodation for the camera not looking down the line.
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Homer Kelley’s statements indicate to me that he thought shifts made a difference but he offered no proof and did not provide instructions on how the player would decide. Possibly his intent was that the decision was a job for the AI.
Also, considering Hank Haney's concepts, one could conclude that players like Tiger are not visualizing planes as defined by TGM. Would Haney argue that he is not shifting?
DRW
Also, considering Hank Haney's concepts, one could conclude that players like Tiger are not visualizing planes as defined by TGM. Would Haney argue that he is not shifting?
DRW
Perfect Impact
New
In this thread I have a question: does it matter what the planes are as long as there is integrity in the downswing relative to the efficiency of THAT PERSON'S BODY type, range of motion, etc. I can begin a golf swing with the club sitting on top of my right shoulder and swing from there: someone tell me how the shaft or ss plane at setup applies to this!
And the planes drawn on the tiger swing pics: to what avail? To make golfers feel guilty? How does it help in ANY way to help a golfer?
Real people want to know.
And the planes drawn on the tiger swing pics: to what avail? To make golfers feel guilty? How does it help in ANY way to help a golfer?
Real people want to know.
Why would drawing planes line on Tiger make anyone feel guilty? They are visual references so people can learn about his motion.
Give me a break.
This is hardly a venue to rail at diagnosing swings!
George, you are also being quite hypocritical, so to clear things up, go and delete all your posts about Mike Austin's swing and it's pieces, or any other person's swings, at all internet locations you've visited. Thanks.
Give me a break.
This is hardly a venue to rail at diagnosing swings!
George, you are also being quite hypocritical, so to clear things up, go and delete all your posts about Mike Austin's swing and it's pieces, or any other person's swings, at all internet locations you've visited. Thanks.
Perfect Impact
New
My question is to ask those who talk about the planes is to find out what is learned from doing that. I don't arrive at a conclusion from seeing that TW or anyone else has "planes" unrelated to their interrelated mechanical alignments that make for "better."
Everyone swings on some planes, and it isn't meaningful to me simply to show planes without some relationship to the efficiency or logic in the mechanics. I am looking for what is intended to be instructed by them.
My own posts on mechanics are intended to relate elements, not just name them...to enable the whole picture and its logical unity and efficiency.
Everyone swings on some planes, and it isn't meaningful to me simply to show planes without some relationship to the efficiency or logic in the mechanics. I am looking for what is intended to be instructed by them.
My own posts on mechanics are intended to relate elements, not just name them...to enable the whole picture and its logical unity and efficiency.
tourdeep
New
Perfect Impact said:
How does it help? For those that care, it helps, and for those that don't care, well, no. With technology, it's becoming increasingly important learning and improving one's swing thru these lines. Personally, I think it's great.
It's a learning curve of all sorts where to draw those doggone lines and what plane, train, or automobile it references. Some people like Buick, others like Amtrak, and then there's Alaska Airlines. Lots of ways to get there. We just seem to not get on the same vehicle. But, I contend one can draw a line anywhere, and I mean anywhere on a framed picture, see changes, give it meaning, relative to that line.
Perfect Impact
New
dbl said:
My bad: I missed the underlying point that the lines were to point out: I simply misread the intention of the post. Of course the lines are instructive as you say. When they showed other than "normal" plane things I went too far in my interpretation of why the illustration was made.
Head bowed.
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