Downswing: lifting right heel prematurely, right knee staightening

[GeoffDickson]

A recent video analysis identified a right heel that is almost certainly lifting prematurely...a straightening of the right knee was also evident alongside of a loss of spine angle...my impact position could be described as near vertical - straight legs and straight back.

In 2007, BM posted a video arguing that there was nothing wrong with keeping a flat right heel (if you could): Brian Manzella Video Answer - Flat Right Foot - YouTube
Is this still the current thinking?

Can somebody help me understand the antecedents/causes to these issues? Presumably I do this to because a hit the ball better when i do these things*...how do i take away the incentive* to lift my right heel, straighten my right leg and straighten my spine?

*BM has previously used this approach when discussing the flip

 

[puttmaster]

Hi Geoff -- Does your video show early extension (your hips/lower body going toward the ball/target line during the downswing)? If so, that could be the cause of the early rise of the heel and straightening of the right leg. One cure of that would be to focus on the starting-downswing feel of sitting/squatting into your lead hip...without letting your butt or belt buckle get closer to the ball.

 

[SteveT]

A recent video analysis identified a right heel that is almost certainly lifting prematurely...a straightening of the right knee was also evident alongside of a loss of spine angle...my impact position could be described as near vertical - straight legs and straight back.
..............
Can somebody help me understand the antecedents/causes to these issues? Presumably I do this to because a hit the ball better when i do these things*...how do i take away the incentive* to lift my right heel, straighten my right leg and straighten my spine?

Let me take a shot at this interesting "reflex" action that plagues you. Arturo and Dariusz might also want to kick in some advice since both are "golf body" gurus.

It's all about your Center of Gravity, or more exactly, your Center of Mass (CofM) and how you attempt to control it in your downswing.

Your CofM is located near your navel and inside your body when standing erect. You are in balance statically.

When you crouch over at address, your CofM moves outward because you've redistributed your body mass. The vertical projection of your CofM will always fall somewhere between your foot base to the ground.

When you start your golfswing, your various body segments move around through twisting and shifting and even swinging your arms and club... and your CofM is in dynamic flux... it's moving back and forth and side to side as you go through your swing motion. Your CofM can even go outside your feet area, and then you are in a state of momentary imbalance, or dynamic balance. You normally will recover to return to a reasonable state of balance and complete your swing, one way or another. If you lose your balance, you will stumble in some direction to recover.

However, if you go vertical in your downswing, you are bringing your CofM back inside your body, rather than maintaining the dynamic balance into your followthru and then go vertical in your finish position. What you are doing is bailing out early by standing up because you are uncertain about your dynamic balance that must continue into your followthru.

You're chickening out... because your balance mechanism within your ears thinks you will fall if you don't straighten up and shift your body CofM safely behind your navel... believe it...!!!

Let me give you another example of this chickening out reflex that forces you to straighten up at the wrong time with disastrous results. Novice (snow) skiers will stand up straight if they know they are going to fall down... because their balance mechanisms and brain tell them they must bring their CofM back inside their body to hold off falling... and then they topple disastrously!!! What you must do when you are falling, is to control your fall by bringing your knees up and curling up to concentrate your CofM when you do hit the ground... and then you try to fall on to your back. Instinct tells you to straighten up, while experience lets you crouch down to control your new CofM and mitigate the fall.

Same thing in golf, starting in a semi-crouched address position, holding that alignment while twisting your body back, and then reversing the rotation in the downswing... while keeping your CofM over your foot base even if it means letting your CofM migrate slightly outside your body... and only bringing it back inside in your finish rotation.

Can you maintain your crouched golfswing posture throughout when you are swinging freely without a ball? Does the unconscious fearful thought of ball impact cause you to prematurely stand up because you fear a loss of balance? Or is there some other cause to your mystery vertical erection reflex just prior to impact....

(p.s. Geoff... if you have a pot belly, that means you are carrying extra mass, and if you fling it around in the downswing, your brain will automatically force you to straighten up, not only to maintain balance but also save your spinal cord from injury.)

 

[GeoffDickson]

Steve...thanks for the detailed response.

I think you chicken theory has some merit.
Your pot belly is not valid here

Puttmaster...the squat 'swingthought' is a good one. Thanks

 

[mgranato]

Hip/lower body tug.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Steve said a lot from mechanical point of view. I can only add that this is one of the symptoms of lack of sequentiality of the movement from the ground up, in this case, an overactive rear hip joint that acts prematurely in hope to power the motion. It is the same caliber of mistake as throwing arms OTT after the transition (without a body turn at all). When you swing from the ground up, there is no problem of losing the tush line of the rear buttock and lifting the rear heel prematurely as a consequence. Rear hip moves sort of linearily targetwise (never towards the ball) before rotational part as an answer for correct usage of both horizontally and vertically oriented ground forces. There must be enough linear motion for a biped and it is crucial to ensure it occurs in the right direction. The more the rear hip joint moves targetwise the longer the rear heel stays low.

Moreover, it is worth mentioning that if one believes more in, say, what Hogan said in 5L that hips starts the downswing (and it is not happening from the ground up) one needs to remember the drawing of the elastic band that "comes off" the lead hip, never rear one. This is a very important thing (that my studies on kinetics confirmed strongly) that leading side of the body in the sagittal plane must correspond to the orientation of the motion - hence lead hip joint in Hogan's case. The rear side is inertial.
Nevertheless, this is one of few issues I got with Hogan's descriptions of his feels. I am of the opinion (as for this moment of time) that starting from the ground up has much more merits. Hogan was not always right. Whatever said -- both ways ensure that the rear heel does not lift off prematurely.

Cheers

 

[GeoffDickson]

Darius...is it accurate to say that you believe that an initial lateral slide of the hips is a fundamental characteristic of an effective swing?

 

[natep]

Havent you posted your swing before on here? I'm not really sure what you mean, seems that if the right heel is lifting up early then the right knee is also bending early to facilitate this? I guess I dont see how your right leg can straighten and the heel can come up simultaneously.

Without seeing the swing, I'd wager that your lower body/pivot is likely outracing your arms on the way down and that the arms/torso sequencing is off.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Darius...is it accurate to say that you believe that an initial lateral slide of the hips is a fundamental characteristic of an effective swing?

Of course because we are bipeds. The best of course when it is unintentional and automatic. First linear shift then rotation.

Cheers

 

[Nitro7]

Of course because we are bipeds. The best of course when it is unintentional and automatic. First linear shift then rotation.

Cheers

Could you explain/show me in the swing below what part of the body shifts linear before it rotates in the downswing. Thanks.

 

[coach]

Great view of the pivot, squat, and lateral bend

 

[Dariusz J.]

Could you explain/show me in the swing below what part of the body shifts linear before it rotates in the downswing. Thanks.

CoM of the pelvis, usually one of hip joints, often rear hip joint. The phenomenon is sometimes more visible because the linear part preceeds the rotational part (Hogan, Knudson, Moe, Trevino), sometimes both parts are well mixed up (Snead, Woods) giving a look of eliptic movement.

The YT vid angle you presented is not the luckiest to watch it. However, it can be seen even with this angle when we watch golfers from the first of two groups mentioned above.

Cheers

 

[SteveT]

Dariusz.... could you differentiate between golfers with wide and narrow pelvis spans between the hip joints? Also, how is the shift/rotation affected by the mass of the belly supported by the pelvis girdle?

I'm referring to the width and depth of the anatomy around and near the CofM. Of course the ratio of leg length to torso length could also be a factor. Body typing introduces so many variables...

 

[Nitro7]

CoM of the pelvis, usually one of hip joints, often rear hip joint. The phenomenon is sometimes more visible because the linear part preceeds the rotational part (Hogan, Knudson, Moe, Trevino), sometimes both parts are well mixed up (Snead, Woods) giving a look of eliptic movement.

The YT vid angle you presented is not the luckiest to watch it. However, it can be seen even with this angle when we watch golfers from the first of two groups mentioned above.

Cheers

I was asking about Tiger. So you believe Tiger's pelvis center of mass moves in a straight
line prior to anything rotating. In what direction does the CoM move linear in relation to the
target line and how much IYO?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz.... could you differentiate between golfers with wide and narrow pelvis spans between the hip joints? Also, how is the shift/rotation affected by the mass of the belly supported by the pelvis girdle?

I'm referring to the width and depth of the anatomy around and near the CofM. Of course the ratio of leg length to torso length could also be a factor. Body typing introduces so many variables...

Steve, I cannot -- it was never a subject of my researches in anatomy. I am just dealing with big picture where we assume all humans are identical.

I was asking about Tiger. So you believe Tiger's pelvis center of mass moves in a straight
line prior to anything rotating. In what direction does the CoM move linear in relation to the
target line and how much IYO?

Well, I cannot say if it moves in a straight line (as I said his linear and rotational parts are well mixed) but it must move, otherwise either he stays at the lead side all the swing without loading his rear one or he does not move his CoG of the body to the lead leg (which would have never affected his knee in such a scenario -- and we know very well how he snaps his lead leg).

Cheers

 

[natep]

I've seen many TW swings where he's sliding his left foot underneath him through impact, away from the target, similar to Sadlowski. This leads me to believe that he doesnt in fact have much weight on the left leg and is more centered, otherwise how could this be possible?

 

[GeoffDickson]

Havent you posted your swing before on here? I'm not really sure what you mean, seems that if the right heel is lifting up early then the right knee is also bending early to facilitate this? I guess I dont see how your right leg can straighten and the heel can come up simultaneously.

Without seeing the swing, I'd wager that your lower body/pivot is likely outracing your arms on the way down and that the arms/torso sequencing is off.

Yep, you've seen my swing before...but it didn't have this problem then...Tough to explain, but in essence, i have an early extension (i.e. goat hump) and a right heel that gets high early. I will play with the sequencing as suggested. Thanks.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I've seen many TW swings where he's sliding his left foot underneath him through impact, away from the target, similar to Sadlowski. This leads me to believe that he doesnt in fact have much weight on the left leg and is more centered, otherwise how could this be possible?

Yes, more centered requiring less linear motion but what happens with his (and Sadlowski's etc.) lead foot is just a phenomenon of releasing torques in lead leg's joints because of extension leading to jump and zero friction.
Also often big hitters, in an subconscious effort of adding ooomph, place their lead foot more targetwise (similar basis as e.g. last pace before throw in light athletics -- it is a very well known thing especially in javelin throw technique) and later it appears to be impossible to resist torques in joints and they have to be released. Sadlowski is a good actual example of this, the great Ted Ray was before:

It does not mean they do need any linear shift. They are bipeds and they need it even in more centered swings independently what happens with their lead heel at impact.

Cheers