Downswing Pivot and Flipping

[c21heel]

Would I be correct in my assumption that flipping could be a direct result of not completing your downswing pivot. In other words, if one were to stop turning on the downswing, would the hands be forced to flip through the impact area in order to square the clubface?

While we are on the subject, what typically happens when both the shoulders and hips are square at impact?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Yes bad pivots can cause flipping

 

[c21heel]

Jim, do you ever have students who have square shoulders and hips at impact. If so, what do they struggle with? Fat shots, pulls, shanks, etc.?

Thanks

 

[Erik_K]

Hell yeah bad pivots cause flipping!

 

[Jared Willerson]

A good pivot makes achieving educated hands and a FLW much easier IMO.

 

[rundmc]

If your pivot stops . . . you could certainly flip it.

You could also flip it if you try to hit the back of the ball.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim, do you ever have students who have square shoulders and hips at impact. If so, what do they struggle with? Fat shots, pulls, shanks, etc.?

Thanks

most bad pivots have the shoulders too open at impact the hips too square or even closed.

Usually i have to make them "feel" like they have square shoulders at impact because we are trying to get that right shoulder go down the plane. I try not to make them move the hips with the hips, i feel they should respond to your whole motion.

However people who have very square shoulders during impact and the right shoulder is not on plane usually means they are swinging underplane and too far to the right. Lots of things can happen:

shanks
fat shots
pushes
thinners
hooks
etc

everything that is associated with coming underplane

 

[Burner]

Would I be correct in my assumption that flipping could be a direct result of not completing your downswing pivot. In other words, if one were to stop turning on the downswing, would the hands be forced to flip through the impact area in order to square the clubface?

While we are on the subject, what typically happens when both the shoulders and hips are square at impact?

Flipping causes flipping and a bad pivot has little to do with that BUT does have other issues.

It would not be unusual to have square shoulders at impact. It would, however, be unusual to have squared shoulders and square hips even if the feeling of having square hips is what you experience. Square shoulders is not bad, slightly open is better, PROVIDED your swing does not finish at impact. Every shot has to run its course and that does not end at the ball but continues to a full finish.

Excessive wrist action only causes flipping.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Excessive wrist action only causes flipping.

incorrect...if your pivot isn't working correctly and basically stops and the arms come racing through at 80mph+ the left wrist will bend through the ball.

If you pivot correctly on PHYSICALLY TRY TO FLIP you won't! Because the force of your pivot is stronger than the muscles in your wrists.

 

[Erik_K]

incorrect...if your pivot isn't working correctly and basically stops and the arms come racing through at 80mph+ the left wrist will bend through the ball.

If you pivot correctly on PHYSICALLY TRY TO FLIP you won't! Because the force of your pivot is stronger than the muscles in your wrists.

I agree, MANY people flip because they hang back and don't turn through the shot like they should.

You'd HAVE to flip if you're pivot stops prematurely.

 

[c21heel]

I've heard both arguments about flipping...one camp says stopping the pivot leads to flipping, the other says excessive hand action leads to flipping. Seems like the debate continues .

Now, if one were to focus on the wedding-ring-up move, why wouldn't that be considered excessive hand action?

 

[rundmc]

I've heard both arguments about flipping...one camp says stopping the pivot leads to flipping, the other says excessive hand action leads to flipping. Seems like the debat continues .

Now, if one were to focus on the wedding-ring-up move, why wouldn't that be considered excessive hand action?

Wedding ring up move still maintains a FLAT LEFT WRIST . . . . the antithesis of a FLIP.

There is no debate BOTH can cause a flip . . .

Steering can cause a flip . . .

Monitoring the Clubhead instead of the hands can cause a flip . . .

Trying to hit the ball toward the target instead of into the ground can cause a flip . . .

Trying to hit the back of the ball instead of the inside of the ball can cause a flip . . .

Trying to hit below the equator of the ball can instead of above/at the equator to the ground can cause a flip . . .

Overacceleration can cause a flip . . .

Being off plane can cause a flip . . .

 

[RicoSuave]

any drill for more squared shoulders ?

most bad pivots have the shoulders too open at impact the hips too square or even closed.

Usually i have to make them "feel" like they have square shoulders at impact because we are trying to get that right shoulder go down the plane. I try not to make them move the hips with the hips, i feel they should respond to your whole motion.

Hi Jim,
do you have any drill or feel for getting the shoulders not too far open at impact.

btw isnt´t it logical to hit thin shot with too open shoulders (high left), because also with a FLW the distance from the left shoulder to the ball is too far to hit still down into the turf after the ball ?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Hi Jim,
do you have any drill or feel for getting the shoulders not too far open at impact.

btw isnt´t it logical to hit thin shot with too open shoulders (high left), because also with a FLW the distance from the left shoulder to the ball is too far to hit still down into the turf after the ball ?

Look for the free vidoes that Brian does on getting the right shoulder downplane and also the one on maximum trigger delay.

Both have drills on getting the right shoulder down plane. The one on the maximum trigger delay i think has a small drill somewhere in the video that is useful and i "borrow" in my teaching

 

[RicoSuave]

Look for the free vidoes that Brian does on getting the right shoulder downplane and also the one on maximum trigger delay.

Both have drills on getting the right shoulder down plane. The one on the maximum trigger delay i think has a small drill somewhere in the video that is useful and i "borrow" in my teaching

Thanks Jim,
the vids show how through the axis tilt the right shoulder travells down.
But I think this is just a matter of direction and doesnt describe how open the shoulders sholud be. So bumping the hip with the constant center of the back of the neck results automatically in a steeper (downward moving) right shoulder. If you imagine the shoulders (with this steep angle) are 20 degrees open at impact, the left shoulder is so high, that the left arm with club and FLW could not reach the ball; if they were nearly square, the downblasting arms can easily hit the ball in the downmotion.
If this is correct what I think, my question is how to get my shoulders more square during impact.
(hope my bad english is not confusing you too much )