Doyle vs. Yoda ='s I'm confused!

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rundmc

Banned
Hey Fellas,

Self admitted TGM Doofus here. In my quest to better understand TGM and translate it to better scores, I've started to re-read the Book. Also, I'm currently in the process of watching Mr. Doyle's video that I've had for a while.

This post is certainly not meant to disparage Mr. Doyle b/c he will know more about TGM than I could ever wish to know. However, I would like for you guys to help me clarify a few things.

Doyle's video seems to highly stress the pivot, which I know is extremely important. He does mention the supreme importance of the flat left wrist and the bent right wrist. However, he does not mention the rt wrist being LEVEL, which seems pretty critical to me. I may be some what biased here b/c I have tendency to double cock.

I guess my first question is how can you have your "mind on the hands" with all this stress on the pivot? Which comes first the hands or the pivot?

Also, he states that the right elbow pitch position is stronger than the right elbow punch position. This seems to be in contradiction to Yoda and the notes posted in this forum from Mr. Kelley, with their great liking of hitting.

Lately I have been intrigued by the idea of hitting. ECox (an amazing teacher) has told me I'm primarily a swinger. Which is cool. But hitting just sounds so NASTY in a good way.

So is Doyle in opposition to Kelley and Yoda in stating that the pitch is stronger than the punch? And one last one, is a swinger chasing the idea of hitting like getting your game on a bad heroin trip? [xx(] And if I do get on a hitting trip what uncocks the left wrist in hitting? Should I just dance with the chick that brung me?

Thanks fellas!

Richard
 
C

cdog

New
Good questions, hopefully some will be answered, but it will depend on whose interpretation you want to go with. TGM is like the bible, IT SEEMS in that its the readers interpretation and what faith you believe in.

As i see it, (and I'm like you, trying to make sense of everything)its impossible for your hands to move WITHOUT something moving them PERIOD. The hands can't move unless the arms move them, but the arms can move from the shoulders, but you don't have to move the shoulders.But when you put the hands together holding a shaft, try moving it ON PLANE,. the shoulders move. Homer even states to train the pivot separately, as the pivot causes the most problems.
As far as pivot vs hands controlled, read 5-0 many times , then ask those here with more knowledge what they think, 5-0 tell me hands control is simply monitoring all things about the hands.

Hitting vs swinging is really very simple, its how we accelerate the shaft, we pull it through, or push it through. Lengthwise of radially, rear arm thrust or passive rear arm.

Pitch vs punch, i would think it depends on who's using the pitch or using the punch, i think each person will do one better than the other, if only minimally so. I practice both, and i think it will give you more options available for you to use.

As far as what uncocks the lead wrist, read 7-3, especially the last paragraph, it may be one of the bast paragraphs in the book.
 
E

EdZ

New
I would suggest that pitch is more powerful for a swinger, and punch for a hitter. Pitch takes advantage of the swinging force and max delay, punch takes advantage of the leverage of the right shoulder/arm. I can't tell you why/if Doyle and Yoda disagree, just my view on the topic.
 
D

diggerdog

New
Homer asked Doyle to write the forward. I've watched Yoda hit a 1 iron 220 on a rope, in spikeless golf shoes, no less. Both are passionate about teaching. Both are effective in their craft. Both are human, and subject to that condition. It's like asking me which child of mine I love the most. If Homer weren't teaching 16 hours a day, maybe he could drop in for daily clarification and illumination. Until he does, take what you can use and leave the rest behind, I say.
 
R

rundmc

Banned
I hope you guys don't take this thread as me DISSING Mr. Doyle or Yoda. I appreciate your replies too. I think in trying to clear a little fog I created more for myself.

I think this has more to do with me being a goofball headcase than what these guys teach. Just trying to get my feeble brain wrapped around it.
 
rwh

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by rundmc

Also, he states that the right elbow pitch position is stronger than the right elbow punch position. This seems to be in contradiction to Yoda and the notes posted in this forum from Mr. Kelley, with their great liking of hitting. . . . So is Doyle in opposition to Kelley and Yoda in stating that the pitch is stronger than the punch?
Richard
Click to expand...

Ben is teaching a Swinging Procedure on his video and he may have made the comment in the context of what he was teaching. Anyway, in the book, Mr. Kelley lists the Pitch Basic Stroke as his preferred Elbow position for Swinging [see Component #3 in 12-2-0] and the Punch Basic Stroke as his preferred Elbow position for Hitting [see Component #3 in 12-1-0]. EdZ's post sheds some light as to why Mr. Kelley might have made this recommendation.
 
E

ecox3

New
Run,

I had to chase you all the way over here, and forgive me guys, but I've been working with this guy. I've been trying to tell you that in hitting it is power accumulator #1 uncocking the left wrist (#2) by applying pressure to PP#1. In swinging, centrifugal force uncocks the left wrist IF YOU ALLOW IT!!!! Now for the punch vs pitch position of the right elbow in hitting and swinging...Hitting is PUSHING, and to push the power source must be behind that which is to be pushed. There fore the right elbow will be BEHIND the hands pushing, thrusting, through impact and beyond (punch)via the right triceps. Swinging is PULLING...elbow precedes (pitch position) that which is being pulled ie.. the hands and club. I have never met Brian or Mr. Doyle, but respect them immensely. However, I do know Yoda and he subscribes equally to both procedures and can display them at will.

EC
 
B

bsbsbs

New
quote:Originally posted by ecox3

Run,

I had to chase you all the way over here, and forgive me guys, but I've been working with this guy. I've been trying to tell you that in hitting it is power accumulator #1 uncocking the left wrist (#2) by applying pressure to PP#1. In swinging, centrifugal force uncocks the left wrist IF YOU ALLOW IT!!!! Now for the punch vs pitch position of the right elbow in hitting and swinging...Hitting is PUSHING, and to push the power source must be behind that which is to be pushed. There fore the right elbow will be BEHIND the hands pushing, thrusting, through impact and beyond (punch)via the right triceps. Swinging is PULLING...elbow precedes (pitch position) that which is being pulled ie.. the hands and club. I have never met Brian or Mr. Doyle, but respect them immensely. However, I do know Yoda and he subscribes equally to both procedures and can display them at will.

EC
Click to expand...

fairly new to TGM, had never heard the explanation of elbow behind, elbow ahead. Does that mean automatically that people like moe norman, johnny miller and others who have talked about the elbow leading the hands into impact must be swingers??? Any pictures of someone who uses a definite punch stoke to compare to???
 
rwh

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by ecox3

Run,

I had to chase you all the way over here, and forgive me guys, but I've been working with this guy. I've been trying to tell you that in hitting it is power accumulator #1 uncocking the left wrist (#2) by applying pressure to PP#1. In swinging, centrifugal force uncocks the left wrist IF YOU ALLOW IT!!!! Now for the punch vs pitch position of the right elbow in hitting and swinging...Hitting is PUSHING, and to push the power source must be behind that which is to be pushed. There fore the right elbow will be BEHIND the hands pushing, thrusting, through impact and beyond (punch)via the right triceps. Swinging is PULLING...elbow precedes (pitch position) that which is being pulled ie.. the hands and club. I have never met Brian or Mr. Doyle, but respect them immensely. However, I do know Yoda and he subscribes equally to both procedures and can display them at will.

EC
Click to expand...

Good post. At what point in the Downswing do you teach that the pushing, thrusting of the right triceps should begin?
 
D

DDL

New
quote:Originally posted by ecox3

Run,

.... Now for the punch vs pitch position of the right elbow in hitting and swinging...Hitting is PUSHING, and to push the power source must be behind that which is to be pushed. There fore the right elbow will be BEHIND the hands pushing, thrusting, through impact and beyond (punch)via the right triceps. Swinging is PULLING...elbow precedes (pitch position) that which is being pulled ie.. the hands and club. ......

EC
Click to expand...

I assume that a flying right elbow is 'desirable' for the hitter's punch position because that way, the right elbow is behind the hands longer in the downstroke.

How does one pitch if one has a giant pot belly that blocks the elbows? I swing with a punch stroke. Not very effectively.I am 5'9" 215 lbs. All my weight is literally around my waist.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top