Driver Distance: Lag, Angle of Approach and Spin

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tonyrtonyr

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Can one have significant lag in the downswing and still approach the ball in a flatter (less steep) angle?

I have extreme lag in the downswing and come in steeply which I think is one of the main reasons my spin rate is costing my distance with the driver. Even with stiff-tipped shafts -- Speeder 757, Diamana 83 (stiff) -- my spin rate is upwards of 3600.

I also think my angle of approach is sharp (hitting the ball on the downwing). I recall Brian mentioning in one of the youtube shorts that even with the driver we do (or should) hit down on the ball. How does one accomplish this without imparting more backspin than is optimal for maximum distance?

I would love to hear any advice (or drills) that would allow me to maintain the lag in my downswing but get flatter at the bottom. Also, my fitter advised that I go with a butt soft/tip stiff shaft in combination with a higher loft driver (10.5). Does this advice make sense?

One immediate thought I had is to play the ball more forward -- say off the left toe as opposed to inside left heel -- and focus on keeping my head behind the ball in an attempt to shallow out the angle of approach at impact. How do people feel about hitting up on the ball with the driver generally, teeing it higher etc. especially in conjunction with a patten like mine (a poor man's Sergio Garcia move) where I want to maintain my lag.
 
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tonyrtonyr

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Jim Kobylinski said:
Sergio Garcia
Click to expand...

That's just the thing -- I often get that comparison from the untrained eye (I re-route on the downswing on the same sort of plane). Needless to say, Sergio has had more success :) .

Experimenting today, ball position may have been a big factor. I moved the ball nearly 4 or 5 inches up in my stance with the driver. Per lia41985's comment, I suppose ball position can affect axis tilt as well?
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
tonyrtonyr said:
That's just the thing -- I often get that comparison from the untrained eye (I re-route on the downswing on the same sort of plane). Needless to say, Sergio has had more success :) .

Experimenting today, ball position may have been a big factor. I moved the ball nearly 4 or 5 inches up in my stance with the driver. Per lia41985's comment, I suppose ball position can affect axis tilt as well?
Click to expand...

Yup
 
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Robbohank

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tonyrtonyr said:
Can one have significant lag in the downswing and still approach the ball in a flatter (less steep) angle?

I have extreme lag in the downswing and come in steeply which I think is one of the main reasons my spin rate is costing my distance with the driver. Even with stiff-tipped shafts -- Speeder 757, Diamana 83 (stiff) -- my spin rate is upwards of 3600.

I also think my angle of approach is sharp (hitting the ball on the downwing). I recall Brian mentioning in one of the youtube shorts that even with the driver we do (or should) hit down on the ball. How does one accomplish this without imparting more backspin than is optimal for maximum distance?

I would love to hear any advice (or drills) that would allow me to maintain the lag in my downswing but get flatter at the bottom. Also, my fitter advised that I go with a butt soft/tip stiff shaft in combination with a higher loft driver (10.5). Does this advice make sense?

One immediate thought I had is to play the ball more forward -- say off the left toe as opposed to inside left heel -- and focus on keeping my head behind the ball in an attempt to shallow out the angle of approach at impact. How do people feel about hitting up on the ball with the driver generally, teeing it higher etc. especially in conjunction with a patten like mine (a poor man's Sergio Garcia move) where I want to maintain my lag.
Click to expand...

Tony,

Your's sounds like an identical post to one that I could make. I also fight very high spin with the driver and have a "poor man's Sergio" like move (and get that comment often).

Equipment changes can help some (I'm in the 4000 rpm spin range with my driver), but I don't think you can go from there to the "ideal" (which is somewhere in the 2000's) with equipment alone. I was fitted at UST over a year ago and was told that mine is the "toughest fitting we do". My driver clubhead speed is 108 to 112 and I'm using a Titleist 905R (9.5 degree). They put me in a "high-tone" V2 CB (CounterBalanced) shaft (X flex) which I believe is tip soft and butt-stiff. Part of the reasoning is due to the bore-thru design of the 905R and to try and help my launch angle get up. They also suggested going to a 10.5 loft. (My launch rate was 10 degrees and lower).

The changes in my spin rate after all that have been minimal. I'm still in the 3800 range..... a long way from where I'd like to be. But, I hit it pretty straight/solid and long enough to play (probably in the 270 - 280 range). Axis tilt helps me get the ball "up" as does moving it up in my stance (although 5 inches seems extreme).

I spend less time looking for the "magic bullet" from an equipment standpoint now. My swing signature limits me from getting to driver numbers that approach the ideal, so I need to either go with what I have or improve my swing.

Robbo
 
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All4Golf

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Robbohank said:
Tony,

Your's sounds like an identical post to one that I could make. I also fight very high spin with the driver and have a "poor man's Sergio" like move (and get that comment often).

Equipment changes can help some (I'm in the 4000 rpm spin range with my driver), but I don't think you can go from there to the "ideal" (which is somewhere in the 2000's) with equipment alone. I was fitted at UST over a year ago and was told that mine is the "toughest fitting we do". My driver clubhead speed is 108 to 112 and I'm using a Titleist 905R (9.5 degree). They put me in a "high-tone" V2 CB (CounterBalanced) shaft (X flex) which I believe is tip soft and butt-stiff. Part of the reasoning is due to the bore-thru design of the 905R and to try and help my launch angle get up. They also suggested going to a 10.5 loft. (My launch rate was 10 degrees and lower).

The changes in my spin rate after all that have been minimal. I'm still in the 3800 range..... a long way from where I'd like to be. But, I hit it pretty straight/solid and long enough to play (probably in the 270 - 280 range). Axis tilt helps me get the ball "up" as does moving it up in my stance (although 5 inches seems extreme).

I spend less time looking for the "magic bullet" from an equipment standpoint now. My swing signature limits me from getting to driver numbers that approach the ideal, so I need to either go with what I have or improve my swing.

Robbo
Click to expand...

Robbo,
Don't give up. Your launch conditions are worth a 2nd look for a possible optimal scenario to complement your swing signature. CH-III is a low launcher and he's found a way to make it work for him.
Regards,
Todd
 
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Robbohank

New
Todd,

I'll never totally give up, and I'm willing to make swing changes if needed. :) The CHIII thing is interesting, I wasn't aware he was a low launcher. Wonder if it has anything to do with Bridgestone making a very low spin head? I've heard that the J33 is perhaps the lowest spinner on the market.

Playing in Texas I've come to appreciate my flatter flight and low launch. It's just frustrating when you know there are another 15 to 20 yards to be had if you could just get the spin to a "reasonable" level. 3800 rpm's seems off the charts for a scratch player.

Robbo
 
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flapro

New
Set up with right shoulder even lower and 70% of your weight on right foot at address. Also, be aware that you need to be more extreme on hitting from inside to out as this will flatten out the impact path.
Check that your hands are not set up ahead of the ball at address. Get those hands back more
Sounds like you think you are staying behind the ball at impact, have someone check this for you.
Just a few things IMHO


tonyrtonyr said:
Can one have significant lag in the downswing and still approach the ball in a flatter (less steep) angle?

I have extreme lag in the downswing and come in steeply which I think is one of the main reasons my spin rate is costing my distance with the driver. Even with stiff-tipped shafts -- Speeder 757, Diamana 83 (stiff) -- my spin rate is upwards of 3600.

I also think my angle of approach is sharp (hitting the ball on the downwing). I recall Brian mentioning in one of the youtube shorts that even with the driver we do (or should) hit down on the ball. How does one accomplish this without imparting more backspin than is optimal for maximum distance?

I would love to hear any advice (or drills) that would allow me to maintain the lag in my downswing but get flatter at the bottom. Also, my fitter advised that I go with a butt soft/tip stiff shaft in combination with a higher loft driver (10.5). Does this advice make sense?

One immediate thought I had is to play the ball more forward -- say off the left toe as opposed to inside left heel -- and focus on keeping my head behind the ball in an attempt to shallow out the angle of approach at impact. How do people feel about hitting up on the ball with the driver generally, teeing it higher etc. especially in conjunction with a patten like mine (a poor man's Sergio Garcia move) where I want to maintain my lag.
Click to expand...
 
self-mastery

self-mastery

New
flapro said:
Set up with right shoulder even lower and 70% of your weight on right foot at address. Also, be aware that you need to be more extreme on hitting from inside to out as this will flatten out the impact path.
Check that your hands are not set up ahead of the ball at address.
Click to expand...

You list a number of things that immediately improved my driving last season. It seems that shallowing your swing with the driver produces more power and consistency. I wonder if random and sweep release'rs are better drivers of the ball. Think back to how well Norman launched the ball nice and high with power. I know that Manzella and company disagree with this statement, but I live by it: good driving is 90% setup. I went from sprayer to bomber in days with a few setup changes.

Once you figure out that you can setup with the driverhead well back of the ball, swing down and sweep up with a forward ball position and high tee you will hit the driver better. There shouldn't be a debate whether you hit down or up with the driver; you do both! Bottom out before you swing up (air divot?!). The correct setup solves all of this. I've spent over 10 years trying to hit driver like an iron, but ya'll told me to hit down dammit---doh!

Talent is for Tiger Woods, the rest of us excel through technique.
 
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birdie_man

birdie_man

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Do you need to swing more inside out or do you just need to make sure you have tilt?

...

BTW I'm not gonna recommend hitting up or down.......and I'm not really interested in debating..........

......but I do know that if you're gonna hit down it doesn't have to be to a large degree. (almost level) I believe (esp. so long as you have tilt) it can be effective though. (there's lots of Swingvisions on YouTube too) To me it's mostly just gonna be a result of ball position and having lag pressure.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Please keep this post on topic and if anyone wants to discuss or debate one another that doesn't relate to the topic, please take it to PM's.
 
A

All4Golf

New
Robbohank said:
Todd,

I'll never totally give up, and I'm willing to make swing changes if needed. :) The CHIII thing is interesting, I wasn't aware he was a low launcher. Wonder if it has anything to do with Bridgestone making a very low spin head? I've heard that the J33 is perhaps the lowest spinner on the market.

Playing in Texas I've come to appreciate my flatter flight and low launch. It's just frustrating when you know there are another 15 to 20 yards to be had if you could just get the spin to a "reasonable" level. 3800 rpm's seems off the charts for a scratch player.

Robbo
Click to expand...

Here's something for your consideration.... There's absolutely nothing wrong in taking into consideration where you play to make the most of conditions in Windy Texas.

It was interesting to see how well the ball speed and launch is similar to the USGA launch conditions. You can clearly see the difference in what a 1500 drop in spin will do!

Robbohank_1.jpg


Robbohank_2.jpg


Flights A & C are optimized. Flight B (Robbohank) is not.

As an alternative, dropping launch -2.5* and complement it with a modest decrease in spin (Flight C) will produce results a bit shorter than the optimized USGA launch conditions. Your biggest benefit is a more desirable landing angle to maximize runout (11* less steep!) :)

Regards,
Todd
 
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