Dynamic loft and bounce angles

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w.g.canon

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If a skilled golfer is delivering a 6 iron with 17-20 degrees of loft what is the point of standard equipment having 2-4 degrees of bounce built in? Are not all full standard shots going to be leading edge contacts?

Additionally, I recall Mr. Shields commenting on the combination of forward lean and a closing face contributing to the aforementioned dynamic loft numbers. Could anyone expound, specifically, on this combination for a standard 6 iron?

Is there information available regarding the optimal dynamic loft for a given club? If 17-20 degrees is proper for a six iron, then is 14-17 degrees optimal for a five iron? a 9 iron 28-32 degrees?

If a picker/sweeper is delivering less than optimally with a given iron would it be a reasonable to consider slightly stronger lofts?

Perhaps rather than the term "skilled golfer" I should clarify by asking the questions regarding golfers with 6 iron clubhead speeds in the ballpark of 90 mph.

Slightly off topic and I suspect already answered somewhere in the hundreds of posts I have read, Does Trackman measure clubhead speed directly or is it deduced from ball speed?

Thank you in advance for any insightful replies.

Cheers
 
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SJO

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I don't have a clue about the other stuff but Trackman measures both clubhead and ball speed. The higher the difference between the two, the higher the smash factor, which is basically how well you have struck the ball.
 
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savydan

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You're confusing Dynamic Loft with Angle of Attack.

Don't worry - you're not alone.

Dynamic Loft is about the Face.

Angle of Attack is about the Path.
 
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w.g.canon

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Thank you SJO for a heel of the hand in the forehead, "of course!" moment. My powers of induction, deduction and reduction are not what they used to be I suppose.
 
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w.g.canon

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Is not dynamic loft what is delivered to the ball at impact? Aren't you always going to get a leading edge contact with a full 6 iron? If so, what is the point of any bounce built into the club at all? Can we, for this question, presume an angle of attack of -3.5 degress. If you deliver 18 degrees at impact, what have you done?
 
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w.g.canon

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I'm referring specifically to the bounce of the actual physical iron head. I am not, for the sake of this question concerned with path. Can we assume a zero path with a -3.6 attack. My question, perhaps ill formed, is really about trajectory and club design.
 
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savydan

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Dynamic Loft is where the Face is pointing at impact relative to a fixed point - the ground.

The Angle of Attack (the Path) is independent of the DL.

The initial launch angle is between the DL and AoA.

It's the Angle of Attack that causes the bottom of the club to contact the ground - not the DL (face).
 
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savydan

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w.g.canon said:
I'm referring specifically to the bounce of the actual physical iron head. I am not, for the sake of this question concerned with path. Can we assume a zero path with a -3.6 attack. My question, perhaps ill formed, is really about trajectory and club design.
Click to expand...

What does this mean?

What is the Angle of Attack? Zero, -3.6, or something else?
 
Frans@France

Frans@France

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w.g.canon said:
.....If a skilled golfer is delivering a 6 iron with 17-20 degrees of loft .....?
Click to expand...


I keept this part of the question because maybe you should explain what you mean with "17-20 degrees of delivering" ? You mean launch angle or Dynamic loft or spin loft or......
 
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w.g.canon

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If we assume a downward attack of 3.5 degrees, a club path of 0 degrees, a VSP of 60 degrees, a dynamic loft of 18 degrees, club head speed of 90 mph and a square clubface is it possible to compute forward lean? Is it as simple as saying that with a 30 degree six iron the player must be leaning the club forward 12 degrees? If it is then a club designed with 4 degrees of bounce is making contact with the ball with a negative bounce angle of 8 degrees. If this is so does it matter in any way with regard to the club's performance ?
 
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w.g.canon

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Franz,
I mean dynamic loft as it is measured by Trackman. I am trying to achieve 17 or 18 degree numbers for Dynamic loft with my six iron and was simply curious as to the behaviour of the club during this type of impact. As I recall this would produce in my swing a Vertical launch angle roughly five degrees less (i.e. 12 or 13degrees) for my particular swing.
 
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aaron_lohan

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SJO said:
I don't have a clue about the other stuff but Trackman measures both clubhead and ball speed. The higher the difference between the two, the higher the smash factor, which is basically how well you have struck the ball.
Click to expand...

FYI Nick Faldo has the highest smash factor 1.5
 
Frans@France

Frans@France

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w.g.canon said:
Franz,
I mean dynamic loft as it is measured by Trackman. I am trying to achieve 17 or 18 degree numbers for Dynamic loft with my six iron and was simply curious as to the behaviour of the club during this type of impact. As I recall this would produce in my swing a Vertical launch angle roughly five degrees less (i.e. 12 or 13degrees) for my particular swing.
Click to expand...

Ok : Dynamic loft ~ Static loft + Angle of Attack + Shaft flex + Face roll + Arm/shaft Angle.
 
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savydan

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Check out post 57 by Brian Manzella in the Tiger @ the Memorial thread:

Dynamic Loft = Actual Measured Static Loft of the club + Forward/Backward Lean + bend in the shaft shaft (typical +2° for a driver) + where it strikes on the face (adds loft high on the face, subtracts low on the face).

Are you saying Brian is wrong?
 
Frans@France

Frans@France

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savydan said:
Check out post 57 by Brian Manzella in the Tiger @ the Memorial thread:

Dynamic Loft = Actual Measured Static Loft of the club + Forward/Backward Lean + bend in the shaft shaft (typical +2° for a driver) + where it strikes on the face (adds loft high on the face, subtracts low on the face).

Are you saying Brian is wrong?
Click to expand...

wrong...wrong...no......just forgot one item :)
 
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jake2

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Frans@France said:
wrong...wrong...no......just forgot one item :)
Click to expand...

Kind of hard to see from physics point of view what angle of attack has to do with it. I'm not also clear what Arms/shaft Angle is in the Trackman terms? Somebody seems to be making an assumption that it means forward lean. What do arms have to do with it?

Brian's equation is based on real physics.
Trackman formula is an approximation and confuses things in my opinion when using angle of attack in place of forward lean (3.1 manual rule of thumb).

Maybe (correct if I'm wrong) the issue is that Trackman does not measure forward lean, so they use this approximation.




None of this debate answers the original question, what does iron head bounce have to do with anything?

Here's my take:

Most better players have enough forward lean to counter the bounce & possible forward bending of the shaft for a six-iron, so bounce is not going to hit the turf before the ball unless you hit it fat. To put it other terms: static loft - dynamic loft > bounce, then you're not going to have issues. For soft turf conditions (ball sits up a bit), you may even have some bounce left and it's not going to affect.
Angle of attack does not have anything directly to do with it, except that forward lean and negative angle of attack do correlate (but are not necessarily the same).

If the forward lean is not much more that bounce + forward bend of the shaft, then maybe the bounce does reduce the depth of divot (if any) - is that the function?
This is the way I interpret the so called tour pitch, when you do not take a divot, even though AoA is negative. You can do it if you use less forward lean than what's the bounce in the wedge.
 
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