Ernie Els...keeping the box?
- Thread starter jenhaoyen
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Burner
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Obviously he does not know the first thing about "going normal"!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Sounds like out toss
KWBehrs
New
Really? If he is describing the "out toss" then I have misunderstood all of the videos and blog posts. What Els is describing sounds like storage to me.
Robbierob99
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Seems to me the key statement that makes this "like an out toss" is that Ernie says he DOES not want it to get closer to him. The only way to "keep the angle" like Ernie says without it getting closer to you is to employ an out-toss (or a force along the shaft from clubhead down through the butt of the grip) whether he is aware of it or not, he's gotta be doing it.
The reason someone would jump to this "storage" idea is because he says "keep the angle." I know ERNIE isn't saying it but in my opinion I prefer to think about it as "creating an angle" and the best way I know to "create angle" is to apply a force along the shaft / get tangential / out-toss. As an added bonus it won't get too close to me when I "create" this angle.
Just my thoughts.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
The out toss is designed to retain angles, not throw them away. So I would think you misunderstood.
natep
New
The out-toss has transformed my game over the past couple of months. A big part of understanding it better was this article from Manz describing the different types of toss a player might need. Trying for the 'B' toss was the ticket for me.
The Out-Toss: The Golfer's Feel for the First Move Down
by Brian Manzella
Perhaps no movement in the golf swing confounds players of all abilities as much as the first move down. There is body movement and arm movement involved and even the suggestion that one starts before the other can spark a spirited debate. In my 30 years of teaching, I have seen and taught almost every conceivable "first move down." And while most of my "on the tee" first-move-down instruction deals with the body, almost every golfer at some point in time will need to at least feel what the arms, hands, and club do on their start toward impact. Of all the hundreds of ideas I have suggested as a feel from the top, none have caused as much consternation as "The Out-Toss." I am going to show that there is an out-toss in every swing, and if you can find the right feel for you, your ball-striking will almost undoubtably improve.
Below is a picture of what I feel is the three major types of first move down "out toss.'
The "a" sequence is a version of the out-toss from my video Ideas about The Release. Here the golfer's feel at start-down is going from the turned left arm, bent right arm, cocked wrists position at the top, to a straighter—but not straight—right arm and a lot less cocked left wrist, with the left arm un-turned back to a slightly pre impact location.
The pictures of Ben Hogan were taken from his slow motion swing near the end of his "mini lesson" done at the conclusion of the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf episode of his famous match with Sam Snead at Houston Country Club.
Sequences "a" and "b" start with Hogan at the top of his swing, before much of his "counter-fall."
Sequence a's out-toss left arm was taken from a position about 20 inches pre impact and rotated back to match his shoulder location at the top.
Sequence b's out-toss left arm was taken from the left arm parallel to the ground position and rotated back to match his shoulder location at the top.
Sequence "c" starts with Hogan already into his downswing to more closely replicate the top of the backswing of a less flexible golfer. Sequence c's out-toss left arm was taken from slightly after the shaft parallel to the ground position pre-impact and rotated back to match his shoulder location at the top.
This "out toss" works great for a golfer who's previous first move down was a very narrow tug of the left arm and grip, either straight toward the ball or even further forward.
The feeling of this move is a up and out basketball-type toss. Obviously, the body needs to cooperate with any first move down, and the "up and out-toss" requires a back that stays turned, but a fairly active lower body that shifts back to the center and pulls slightly on the torso.
The "up and out-toss" isn't the best idea for a golfer who already is throwing the clubhead ahead of his hands and arms, or the golfer who has a very slow un-tugged first move down with their pivot.
The "b" sequence is a more "as it really is" movement of a purely tangential pull of the club length-wise and out. This outward movement of the hands actually prevents the early un-cocking of the wrist much better than any pull downward and toward the ball, as it keeps the club's center of mass on the target side of the handle.
The "fiddle out-toss" feel is a non-tugged, back to the target, bent right wrist javelin-type movement that Homer Kelley described as "pulling an arrow out of a quiver" in The Golfing Machine. The movement was captured perfectly (if I do say so myself) by the first move of my fiddle-drill, a drill I invented back in the late 80's.
It works great for a golfer with a long slow release who has (or is working on) a less tugged transition, and golfers who suffer from massive, non-golflike clubhead throwaway. And obviously, some folks are better off trying to do what they actually need to do, instead of a feel working against their flaws.
The "fiddle out-toss" is not a good idea for golfers who need to feel a little right wrist toss from the top or they lose feel for the clubhead.
The "c" sequence is also a more realistic movement to what actually occurs in most great swings, but is more of a second-phase of the swing (as described by the work of Dr. Steven Nesbit) movement.
After waiting just slightly into the downswing, the golfer feels the "about the coupling-point" (mid point of the hands on the grip) down and around toss to speed up the clubhead and start "lining the club up" for impact.
The late "down and out-toss" works great for the golfer with a late tug and for golfers who have cured the early tug but still need a feel for the right wrist activating the clubhead.
The "down and out-toss" is a bad idea for golfers who have a toss built in to their move, either a correct one or a over done version.
Golfers have a variety of problems with their swings that require corrective measures. Sometimes, you can just tell the golfer exactly what you want them to do, and that is the best medicine. But often, golfers need a feel and that feel is ALWAYS in direct opposition to the movement they are trying to avoid. One of the out-toss concepts—or a customized version—will help a lot of golfers control their clubhead and clubface, sometimes almost magically. And as sure as the sun comes up every morning, it won't work at all for some.
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KWBehrs
New
Yes, I get that.
I am not defending "storage" here. Els said, and I paraphrase, he wants to retain the angle at his right elbow. If he is retaining the angle at the right elbow how is he bring the club down? I'm guessing he is using his shoulders and mid-section, that sounds like storage to me.
By the way, I'm in the "out-toss" camp here. It has benefited me greatly. Even though I have apparently gotten wrong.
Also, in the "b" example of Brian's post. It seems Hogan would be doing the "out-toss" with his right arm and yes the angle is retained at the wrist maybe even increased.
dschultz6072
New
Sounds like storage to me, too. "I don't want it to straighten." This was recorded quite a while ago.
nicklessss tiiiigerrrrrrrrrr
nicklessss tiiiigerrrrrrrrrr
KWBehrs
New
Is the "out-toss" "designed to to retain the angle(s)" at the right elbow? Your words not mine. I think no. Could Brian please weigh-in on this?
jenhaoyen
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Burner
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The out toss in practise?
He's getting mad for the same reason we all do when things don't go according to well rehearsed and much practised plans.
Shyte happens to the best of us and if a little gentle out toss of the club, after the shot, helps then so be it.
He's getting mad for the same reason we all do when things don't go according to well rehearsed and much practised plans.
Shyte happens to the best of us and if a little gentle out toss of the club, after the shot, helps then so be it.
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