Finding more distance with driver

[Matt 4-L]

I was at a tournament last weekend and I watched the leaders finish their round after my round and what really stuck out to me was how much further they hit the ball then me. I hit the ball around 270 yd, 285yd if I really catch one. These guys were no bigger or stronger than me, maybe a bit more flexible but why are they flying it past me. So I went home and looked up a bunch of long hitters swings on youtube and one thing that really stuck out to me was how far back their bodies were at impact, their heads were behind their right knee. It got me to thinking, all the advise from pop golf always would say “get to your left side”, “don’t hang back” but if I am trying to hit up on the ball instead of down why would I want to get to my left side, wouldn’t I want to hang back? So I started practicing in the yard with a foam ball “hanging back”, I would make sure I didn’t lose the angle of my right leg by not letting my hip “bump out” but would let it turn as much as it needed and at the top I bumped my hip slightly forward and rotated my hips but instead of feeling like I was getting to my leftside with my upper body, I worked on making my left shoulder feel like it was going backwards while my upper body stayed back. It felt strange and I couldn’t really tell if it was doing much by hitting foam balls. Today was the first opportunity I had to get to a course to see if I could hit the ball further with my driver, I stopped at a short 9 hole course and on the third hole, which was the first hole I could hit driver on was a 300 yd par 4. The hole is slightly uphill with a couple of trees that block the site of the green but if you hit a monster shot you can go over them. So my first drive I absoultle smoke a drive but I couldn’t tell where it finished, I get up to the green and see the ball on the green a foot away from its pitch mark, I was shocked, I have never carried a ball 300yds in my life. I finished out the nine with 2 more drives that finished 310 yds and 2 more that were just shy of 300 yds. The one thing I noticed though is I couldn’t hit my normal fade, they were all draws and one actually was closer to hook. Does this make any sense? Does hanging back increase distance with the driver? I am still in disbelief how far I was hitting it. Is this just another reason why people are not getting better at golf, because pop golf has had it wrong for so long that people just don’t know the truth. Matt.

 

[spktho]

I have to agree with your findings. Only for me, the move forward was a compensation for an open clubface, an attempt to not slice and an attempt to not hit it fat. So, I try to set up with head feeling right, backswing to head over right knee, twistaway with left wrist starting the hands/arms down, use my "normal" downswing pivot, only keeping my head over my right knee and "staying back"(which is far from my old sway left downswing). I haven't noticed an increase in distance yet, but I do notice similar distance with less effort--even with the irons--and I haven't really mastered it yet either.

 

[dbl]

Great question, and great research. Obviously you are on to something.

I tried to find some of Brian's analyses and wonder if your feeling of holding back is anything like is show in these pics:

Photo 6 and 7
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...wing-analysis-brian-manzella-pga-g-s-e-d.html

Photo 8-10 (head way back)
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...wing-analysis-brian-manzella-pga-g-s-e-d.html

Photo just before and just at impact (notice the pole in the background)
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...mer-2008-swing-sequence-w-audio-analysis.html

Snead video, seems to keep upper back in downswing
http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...96-ideal-front-view-golf-swing-sam-snead.html

 

[Richie3Jack]

You're driver may not fit you very well. The PGA Tour has statistics that measure radar findings now (except they don't measure each player's attack angle...bummer). I've looked at the 2009 stats and typically the guys who maximize their distance with their given clubhead speed have the following stats:

Vertical Launch Angle - 11 to 15* (in fact, the top 20 in maximizing distance didn't have a launch angle under 11* last year).

Spin Rate - 2600 to 2800 yards. You want your ball's landing angle at about 40-45*, so sometimes a lower spin rate than 2600 yards can help or hurt that. But generally these guys who maxed their distance had a spin rate between 2600 and 2800 yards.

If you are hitting down on the ball quite a bit, and I would say anything steeper than -2* is too much, it' s going to be tough to hit the ball long unless you generate a lot of clubhead speed. You need to find what attack angle works best for you, but if you want to max out your distance, you need to hit up on the ball.

But the big issue I see with drivers and amateurs is that the vertical launch is too low or too high and usually the spin rate is too high.




3JACK

 

[jonnygrouville]

It got me to thinking, all the advise from pop golf always would say “get to your left side”, “don’t hang back” but if I am trying to hit up on the ball instead of down why would I want to get to my left side, wouldn’t I want to hang back?

I have always thought that 'pop' golf is written for the majority. And the majority of people hit the same kind of shot. There aren't many 'tips' in Golf Digest to fix the underplaners amongst us. Your typical weekend golfer with a typical traditional reverse pivot might well get a slightly better round one day with "don't hang back" in his head. Would they better off with NSA? Hmmmm.

If they have the time, I am sure the more technically minded here can explain what is going on here with your 'hanging back' for more distance. Something to do with axis tilt?

 

[Erik_K]

I was at a tournament last weekend and I watched the leaders finish their round after my round and what really stuck out to me was how much further they hit the ball then me. I hit the ball around 270 yd, 285yd if I really catch one. These guys were no bigger or stronger than me, maybe a bit more flexible but why are they flying it past me. So I went home and looked up a bunch of long hitters swings on youtube and one thing that really stuck out to me was how far back their bodies were at impact, their heads were behind their right knee. It got me to thinking, all the advise from pop golf always would say “get to your left side”, “don’t hang back” but if I am trying to hit up on the ball instead of down why would I want to get to my left side, wouldn’t I want to hang back? So I started practicing in the yard with a foam ball “hanging back”, I would make sure I didn’t lose the angle of my right leg by not letting my hip “bump out” but would let it turn as much as it needed and at the top I bumped my hip slightly forward and rotated my hips but instead of feeling like I was getting to my leftside with my upper body, I worked on making my left shoulder feel like it was going backwards while my upper body stayed back. It felt strange and I couldn’t really tell if it was doing much by hitting foam balls. Today was the first opportunity I had to get to a course to see if I could hit the ball further with my driver, I stopped at a short 9 hole course and on the third hole, which was the first hole I could hit driver on was a 300 yd par 4. The hole is slightly uphill with a couple of trees that block the site of the green but if you hit a monster shot you can go over them. So my first drive I absoultle smoke a drive but I couldn’t tell where it finished, I get up to the green and see the ball on the green a foot away from its pitch mark, I was shocked, I have never carried a ball 300yds in my life. I finished out the nine with 2 more drives that finished 310 yds and 2 more that were just shy of 300 yds. The one thing I noticed though is I couldn’t hit my normal fade, they were all draws and one actually was closer to hook. Does this make any sense? Does hanging back increase distance with the driver? I am still in disbelief how far I was hitting it. Is this just another reason why people are not getting better at golf, because pop golf has had it wrong for so long that people just don’t know the truth. Matt.

You want a fairly level strike with the driver for solid contact. However, it is clear that the long drivers use those super tall tees for reason - they want to hit up on it.

Brian encourages a slightly upward strike as well. I don't know all of the physics behind it, and I will defer to Kevin or Brian as they can chime in with their trackman findings.

I would say your findings are very consistent with how the power hitters want to play - they are copying a baseball-like swing where it seems that they are hanging back. I believe their intent is to impart an upward strike with the clubhead and to do that you need a less aggressive move with the body (in terms of weight shift) through the ball. I like to feel very centered with the driver swing. But in order to hit up on it, I need some of those 'lean back,' 'hang back' thoughts.

But notice how tour players finish - they are very balanced with ALL clubs. They don't end up on their back foot.

Erik

 

[Matt 4-L]

It sure looks like to me the pros who hit it long "hang back". It looks like the majority of their weight is still on their back foot at impact and they move onto their left foot well after impact. Look at Rory in slow mo, stop it at impact and it sure looks like most of his weight is well back. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BHA8hGd-c&feature=related[/media]

 

[joeunc]

I don't think he is really "hanging back" It is definitely hitting into his left side and majority of his weight is getting into that left instep. His axis tilt may make it "look" like is, but is not sitting into his right side at impact.

It sure looks like to me the pros who hit it long "hang back". It looks like the majority of their weight is still on their back foot at impact and they move onto their left foot well after impact. Look at Rory in slow mo, stop it at impact and it sure looks like most of his weight is well back. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1BHA8hGd-c&feature=related[/media]

 

[spktho]

I don't think he is really "hanging back" It is definitely hitting into his left side and majority of his weight is getting into that left instep. His axis tilt may make it "look" like is, but is not sitting into his right side at impact.

You're probably right that Rory doesn't feel like he is "hanging back". But for those who have listened to those GD tips about getting the weight to the left and have taken that too far to where they have basically no weight on the back leg/foot well before impact, it will feel like "hanging back". Axis tilt will help these(us) people as well.

I haven't seen force plate data, but as with Matt, I also see the pros with what looks like a lot of weight on their back foot at impact as they are what looks to be pushing off.


At about 24 minutes in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-q-MKp_HTE

 

[Matt 4-L]

A year and a half later and now I know why I was hitting the ball so far....The move I was actually doing was going normal, the feeling of the left shoulder going back was actually pulling up on the club or going normal.

I got away from that swing because I really started hooking it but knowing what I know about the release I think I can get back to swinging like that. I believe the hooks came from rolling my left wrist/arm instead of just letting the left wrist bend like Brian prescribes in "ideas about the release"....Now if I could learn to putt but that is a totally different story.

 

[OLIVER1]

A year and a half later and now I know why I was hitting the ball so far....The move I was actually doing was going normal, the feeling of the left shoulder going back was actually pulling up on the club or going normal.

I got away from that swing because I really started hooking it but knowing what I know about the release I think I can get back to swinging like that. I believe the hooks came from rolling my left wrist/arm instead of just letting the left wrist bend like Brian prescribes in "ideas about the release"....Now if I could learn to putt but that is a totally different story.

Matt.
I started a thread at the beginning of this month called "Absence of Jump on the Downswing" and it mirrors, almost exactly, what you wrote at the onset of this thread and what you added today. The information from Brian, Michael et al is incredible, is it not?
BTW I also putt like a wanker!!

 

[Matt 4-L]

Matt.
I started a thread at the beginning of this month called "Absence of Jump on the Downswing" and it mirrors, almost exactly, what you wrote at the onset of this thread and what you added today. The information from Brian, Michael et al is incredible, is it not?
BTW I also putt like a wanker!!

You think you putt like a wanker, I joined a club this fall and they keep your handicap so since I have been keeping track of my handicap I have been counting putts and I am averaging 38 putts per round...Needless to say I am reworking my whole thought process on putting this winter.

 

[OLIVER1]

You think you putt like a wanker, I joined a club this fall and they keep your handicap so since I have been keeping track of my handicap I have been counting putts and I am averaging 38 putts per round...Needless to say I am reworking my whole thought process on putting this winter.

I'll see your 38, and raise you 40!!
It's a miserable state of affairs for us. I just want my jump release to work so good, I can drive it on every green in one, three putt every time and still post a score this side of a gazillion.

 

[Matt 4-L]

All my scores I posted this fall except for one was in the 70's I could easily start shooting in the 60's if I could putt, I didn't realize how bad my putting was until I started counting putts, I would be happy with 30 putts per round. I will have several 3 putts per round and even throw in an occasional 4 putt.