"Flipping" lob shot

[jeffy]

Well, Dr. Jeff, did you got yourself banned again: why else the the alternative "JeffM" handle?

Brian took down the Blog thread where I was going to post this, so I'll start a new one to get in my reply. This is the image that accompanied the quote below:

You wrote-: "If I want to hit a high soft lob or sand shot, I can either fully release the right wrist in the downswing and have the left wrist bent a little at impact, or I can set my left wrist in a cupped position at address (hands behind the ball), and maintain that cup throughout the swing."

If you want to have a bent left wrist at impact in order to hit a lob shot, you are free to play golf that way. However, I do not believe that professional golfers attempt to have a bent left wrist at impact - on any golf shot (even lob shots). I believe that a flat left wrist at impact is a near-imperative in a good golfer. If a good golfer wants to hit a high lob shot, he merely places the ball at low point and opens his clubface so that his clubface is maximally laid back. I don't believe that he would routinely employ flipping (allowing the clubhead to pass the hands at impact) when hitting high lob shots.

By the way, I think that Lee Westwood has a functionally flat left wrist at impact (in that photo) - even though his left elbow is slightly bent.

Jeff.

What proof do you have to back up your belief about what tour pros do on lobs? Below is my empirical evidence.

Stan Utley, a tour winner, teaches his tour players to hit lob shots with a bent left wrist. It is explained in his book The Art of the Short Game. Stan never opens the face, except on bunker shots; if he wants to hit it high, he sets his hands back of the ball and maintains the cup. If I am not mistaken, he learned this technique from multiple tour winner Tom Pernice, who probably learned it from the legendary Seve when he was playing the European tour (they were close friends). I must of seen Seve describing this kind of shot on TV more than twenty years ago. Ernie Els plays it all the time.

BTW, I learned this shot directly from Stan about four years ago.

2007 PGA National Teacher of the Year and top ten instructor Jim Hardy, a former tour player who teaches many touring pros, including Utley and Pernice, teaches a similar technique (as he explains in one of his Secrets from the Vault series dvds). Not surprisingly, his colleagues top 50 teacher Mike LaBauve (who teaches many tour pros), former tour winner Marty Fleckman and Hall of Famer Carol Mann have all taught me something similar. It is a bread-and-butter shot for an advanced player.

If you have ever seen someone hit pitch shots with a straight-faced club, they are bending the left wrist dramatically through impact. It is the only way to swing left sufficiently with such a shallow swingplane. Trying to play such a shot with a flat left wrist would be a disaster.

You see, Jeff, by cloistering yourself with books and theory instead of spending time with real teachers and players, you have huge and very fundamental gaps in your golf knowledge.

Here is a clip of Brian videotaping my shot posted above; after I hit it, pay attention to what he says:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12G1edoEXCw[/media]

 

[jeffy]

By the way, I think that Lee Westwood has a functionally flat left wrist at impact (in that photo) - even though his left elbow is slightly bent.

Jeff.

One other thing: of course Lee has made his bent left wrist "functional" by bending his left arm: it is a compensation that keeps the clubhead behind the hands at impact. But, his left wrist is bent and he is a tour professional, period, no matter what you or Homer believe is an "imperative".

 

[mgranato]

Two of the best lobbers in the game, Vijay and Mickelson, hit their lobs with flat leading wrists/open clubface. The most successful short game teacher also teaches the same method. Different ways of doing it obviously, but Hardy's and Utley's students are probably not considered the Tour standard for short game technique.

YouTube - A Flop Shot Lesson With Phil Mickelson

YouTube - Phil Mickelson flop shot on green

 

[Burner]

Well, Dr. Jeff, did you got yourself banned again: why else the the alternative "JeffM" handle?

Brian took down the Blog thread where I was going to post this, so I'll start a new one to get in my reply. This is the image that accompanied the quote below:

What proof do you have to back up your belief about what tour pros do on lobs? Below is my empirical evidence.

Stan Utley, a tour winner, teaches his tour players to hit lob shots with a bent left wrist. It is explained in his book The Art of the Short Game. Stan never opens the face, except on bunker shots; if he wants to hit it high, he sets his hands back of the ball and maintains the cup. If I am not mistaken, he learned this technique from multiple tour winner Tom Pernice, who probably learned it from the legendary Seve when he was playing the European tour (they were close friends). I must of seen Seve describing this kind of shot on TV more than twenty years ago. Ernie Els plays it all the time.

BTW, I learned this shot directly from Stan about four years ago.

2007 PGA National Teacher of the Year and top ten instructor Jim Hardy, a former tour player who teaches many touring pros, including Utley and Pernice, teaches a similar technique (as he explains in one of his Secrets from the Vault series dvds). Not surprisingly, his colleagues top 50 teacher Mike LaBauve (who teaches many tour pros), former tour winner Marty Fleckman and Hall of Famer Carol Mann have all taught me something similar. It is a bread-and-butter shot for an advanced player.

If you have ever seen someone hit pitch shots with a straight-faced club, they are bending the left wrist dramatically through impact. It is the only way to swing left sufficiently with such a shallow swingplane. Trying to play such a shot with a flat left wrist would be a disaster.

You see, Jeff, by cloistering yourself with books and theory instead of spending time with real teachers and players, you have huge and very fundamental gaps in your golf knowledge.

Here is a clip of Brian videotaping my shot posted above; after I hit it, pay attention to what he says:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12G1edoEXCw[/media]

From what I am seeing, your left wrist is flat and your right wrist is bent back at impact. They precede the (lagging) club head into impact.

Your wrists do not cup, left, or arc, right, until after impact.

 

[dashfan87]

From what I am seeing, your left wrist is flat and your right wrist is bent back at impact. They precede the (lagging) club head into impact.

Your wrists do not cup, left, or arc, right, until after impact.

yeah and I see the same thing...

I know, that for years, I have been hitting the lob shot, and I have always maintained one thing, making sure I have a flat left wrist ala the video mickleson did... Its one of my bread and butter shots, it was taught to me by my dad when I was 8, and I'm extremely comfortable with it. wouldn't dream of doing it any other way.

 

[jeffy]

From what I am seeing, your left wrist is flat and your right wrist is bent back at impact. They precede the (lagging) club head into impact.

Your wrists do not cup, left, or arc, right, until after impact.

You really can't see what my wrists are doing at impact from the linked video; you're just making it up.

This is impact:

Bent left wrist, straight right wrist, clubhead ahead of hands.

 

[jeffy]

yeah and I see the same thing...

Yeah, and you're making it up, too.

 

[jeffy]

Two of the best lobbers in the game, Vijay and Mickelson, hit their lobs with flat leading wrists/open clubface. The most successful short game teacher also teaches the same method. Different ways of doing it obviously, but Hardy's and Utley's students are probably not considered the Tour standard for short game technique.

YouTube - A Flop Shot Lesson With Phil Mickelson

YouTube - Phil Mickelson flop shot on green

A flat wrist/open clubface certainly works. The issue with the dearly departed Dr. Mann was whether or not ANY tour professionals did something different; obviously, some do.

BTW, Phil said he didn't throw the clubhead past the hands on a tight lie: probably the safe bet. In a fluffy lie, it is a piece of cake.

When I saw Vijay play at the Masters a couple of years ago, he hit exactly the shot I'm talking about from behind the second green. Tiger Woods practiced it a least a half a dozen times during his warm-up. Els plays it all the time. Wake up and smell the coffee. It isn't that hard a shot.

Also, you think Utley is "sub-standard" on the short game? Well, OK, then. You can replace Jeff Mann as the forum member with the most boneheaded opinions....

 

[Steve Greffen]

A flat wrist/open clubface certainly works. The issue with the dearly departed Dr. Mann was whether or not ANY tour professionals did something different; obviously, some do.

BTW, Phil said he didn't throw the clubhead past the hands on a tight lie: probably the safe bet. In a fluffy lie, it is a piece of cake.

When I saw Vijay play at the Masters a couple of years ago, he hit exactly the shot I'm talking about from behind the second green. Tiger Woods practiced it a least a half a dozen times during his warm-up. Els plays it all the time. Wake up and smell the coffee. It isn't that hard a shot.

Also, you think Utley is "sub-standard" on the short game? Well, OK, then. You can replace Jeff Mann as the forum member with the most boneheaded opinions....

Good points Jeff, and I would like to add...

If you notice that what Phil says is one thing and what he does is another. His first practice swings had some breaking down of his wrist, not flipping way past as he was saying but definitely breaking down a little. You can't tell though as you can't slow the video down like you can the Casio that Brian used on Jeff. I would bet heavily that the if you slowed it down it would look more like it was getting soft than what Phil says he does with the hands forward and wrist flat as a pancake. Like Jeff said his wrist stays a little flatter on those tight lies so that he doesn't blade it but not likely dead flat and then in the fluffy lie not as flat as that.

Also if anyone remembers a few years ago at Riviera when Phil tried to hit that same sand wedge on number nine green when he was on the front of the green and the pin was in the back he cold chunked it. The leading edge hit right in the poa annua and the club almost stuck in the green. Even on the tightest of lies you have to watch how flat you get and thus how far leaning forward the shaft gets so that you don't get a front edge divot. That does not work on a flop shot.

You can hit an open faced mid sole shot that plays like a lob shot with more control (still less spin though) but a lob shot will have some softening of the left wrist (for a right handed player).

Steve

 

[mgranato]

A flat wrist/open clubface certainly works. The issue with the dearly departed Dr. Mann was whether or not ANY tour professionals did something different; obviously, some do.

BTW, Phil said he didn't throw the clubhead past the hands on a tight lie: probably the safe bet. In a fluffy lie, it is a piece of cake.

When I saw Vijay play at the Masters a couple of years ago, he hit exactly the shot I'm talking about from behind the second green. Tiger Woods practiced it a least a half a dozen times during his warm-up. Els plays it all the time. Wake up and smell the coffee. It isn't that hard a shot.

Also, you think Utley is "sub-standard" on the short game? Well, OK, then. You can replace Jeff Mann as the forum member with the most boneheaded opinions....

Sorry to see that personal attacks are still your go to shot when some one has a differing opinion. However, it is nice to see you working with Brian, I'm sure better golf will be in your future.

No where did I say the shot you are hitting is tough to do - for obvious reasons, it's not. Every shot I hit, from putts to drives, has a flat left wrist - I think it's easier to hit the flop/lob with the same wrist conditions. Again, just personal preference.

I thought my comment about Utley and Hardy was accurate and fair, but I'll try again. Utley's stable of players and their success is fairly nondescript, the same for Hardy. That may all change in the future, but as it stands now, neither are the standard for the short game. If YOU want to use the term "sub-standard", that's up to you - but don't try to make my comments more than what they are. If spending the money to work with Utley personally has taken you from a 14 to a 12 index, then that's all that matters. If it works for you it doesn't matter what his tour success is.

 

[dashfan87]

Yeah, and you're making it up, too.

ok... I mean I paused it perfectly at impact, and I saw a clubhead in line with the leading arm. and really... a strait if not flat wrist...

I heard brian say No roll.... i didnt hear him say, break down purposly at impact.

thats my opinion... take it for what it is.

 

[jeffy]

ok... I mean I paused it perfectly at impact, and I saw a clubhead in line with the leading arm. and really... a strait if not flat wrist...

I heard brian say No roll.... i didnt hear him say, break down purposly at impact.

thats my opinion... take it for what it is.

Well, you can hear Brian's analysis and explanation of what he wants here. The first shot is a mid-sole pitch, the second one is the lob:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykFQJrKYudI[/media]

 

[jeffy]

Sorry to see that personal attacks are still your go to shot when some one has a differing opinion. However, it is nice to see you working with Brian, I'm sure better golf will be in your future.

No where did I say the shot you are hitting is tough to do - for obvious reasons, it's not. Every shot I hit, from putts to drives, has a flat left wrist - I think it's easier to hit the flop/lob with the same wrist conditions. Again, just personal preference.

I thought my comment about Utley and Hardy was accurate and fair, but I'll try again. Utley's stable of players and their success is fairly nondescript, the same for Hardy. That may all change in the future, but as it stands now, neither are the standard for the short game. If YOU want to use the term "sub-standard", that's up to you - but don't try to make my comments more than what they are. If spending the money to work with Utley personally has taken you from a 14 to a 12 index, then that's all that matters. If it works for you it doesn't matter what his tour success is.

Do you have high speed video of your lob shot? My guess is that the wrist conditions aren't what you think they are, particularly on a very high shot. If you retain any right wrist bend, it ain't going to be a true lob. At least that's Brian' s opinion, as you can hear on the commentary video I just posted above.

On your gratuitous, predictable and ceaseless digs at Hardy and now Utley, how do know what "the standard for the short game" teaching is? Have you conducted a poll? Spent time on tour? Taken lessons from them? Spoken to their students? Who is the "standard" if not Utley? Please, tell us it is Dave Pelz so we can all have a good laugh.

 

[mgranato]

You asked, so I'll answer, but then I'm done going down this road with you. The success of a student is what I look at. I gave you my opinion of the two teachers you always mention. It's not a dig at Hardy to say his short game philosophy is not a tour standard - he's not known for it, and I don't believe anyone would argue he is. (I am a BIG critic of his OP swing though, as many others on this site are). Utley is still relatively young, and only has had one high profile student for less than 2 years. Again, time will tell, but he's not "there" yet. If you'd like to interject Pelz into the discussion and the success of his students by comparison, I guess we can do it through private channels because I'm guessing it would be as boring and pointless for everyone else as it sounds to me.

Regardless, I'm not sure why this has turned into a thread where you feel like you have to defend your flop shot. The shot looks great. Brian's the best in the biz, and you're obviously doing it how he's telling you. Sounds like a good student/teacher relationship. I wish you the best of luck with your game however you choose to play your shots.

 

[detonum]

Bent left wrist, straight right wrist, clubhead ahead of hands.

Well the left wrist is certainly bent, but the clubhead isn't really ahead of the hands, they're even, and the clubface has already struck the ball, so your shot is not really hit with a backward leaning shaft (from what I can see on the video). Not that there's anything wrong with that, an open face with a vertical shaft should be enough for a nice high lobshot.

Also, I agree with mgranato: your personal attacks don't help the discussion on this forum at all. I think it was very, very low of you to ask JeffMann how many patients he has killed.

 

[jeffy]

You asked, so I'll answer, but then I'm done going down this road with you. The success of a student is what I look at. I gave you my opinion of the two teachers you always mention. It's not a dig at Hardy to say his short game philosophy is not a tour standard - he's not known for it, and I don't believe anyone would argue he is. (I am a BIG critic of his OP swing though, as many others on this site are). Utley is still relatively young, and only has had one high profile student for less than 2 years. Again, time will tell, but he's not "there" yet. If you'd like to interject Pelz into the discussion and the success of his students by comparison, I guess we can do it through private channels because I'm guessing it would be as boring and pointless for everyone else as it sounds to me.

Regardless, I'm not sure why this has turned into a thread where you feel like you have to defend your flop shot. The shot looks great. Brian's the best in the biz, and you're obviously doing it how he's telling you. Sounds like a good student/teacher relationship. I wish you the best of luck with your game however you choose to play your shots.

You really have no idea what "tour standard" is. These guys are teaching the shots I see played every week by the best players. They may not be teaching the best players, because, perhaps, the best players don't need their help.

Please tell me what shots Dave Pelz is teaching his students that Utley and Hardy don't know (you were the one that brought him up, BTW)? The only technique advice I can ever recall being attributed to Pelz with a tour player was that he told Mickelson that he had too much shaft lean with his putter. Any good teacher could have spotted that.

BTW, you started this "my team is better than your team" BS, it wasn't me. That has been your MO as long as you have posted on the internet, regardless of the forum.

 

[jeffy]

Also, I agree with mgranato: your personal attacks don't help the discussion on this forum at all. I think it was very, very low of you to ask JeffMann how many patients he has killed.

Dr. Jeff Mann is a sociopath with the type of "I'm never wrong, you are" personality that should be banned from medicine. Gladly, he has retired (perhaps forced to retire?) as well as been banned for the second and, hopefully, final time from this forum.

 

[dannyc]

whoa...
why would you post something like that?

 

[jeffy]

whoa...
why would you post something like that?

If your question is "why did I ask Dr. Mann 'how many patients have you killed?'", it was in the context of him willfully ignoring obvious truths about the game that conflicted with his faith-based TGM beliefs. As a doctor, that type of behavior could easily cause mis-diagnosis and needless death. Hopefully, he didn't practice medicine the same way he approaches golf.

If your question is "why did I post my reply above to detonum", it is because he didn't like my attack on Dr. Mann, so I thought I'd elaborate a bit on my feelings towards Dr. Mann.

 

[mb6606]

If you set up with a bent left wrist and the shaft leaning backward and keep the alignment through the shot you have what HK called the alternative to a flat left wrist. This is acceptable to any low power shot including putting. BTW this is an easy and great way to hit soft lob shots.