For Instructors and Students - Realistic Results

[d0n]

I started playing golf over a year and a half. I'm currently on my 3rd instructor and I think this one's a winner though we're only about a month into it and not out of the honeymoon phase yet. If I lived near any of the Manzella schools I'd definitely be a student unfortunately I don't.

My question, how long does it take to take the lessons from an instructor and improve your scores on the course? Instructors what are you seeing with your students? Students what kind of results are you getting? What's a realistic improvement? 1-2 strokes a week after a lesson? I'm not talking about players who are working to get on some kind of tour, I'd like to hear about those who hold a day job NOT related to playing golf.

Can some of you share your experiences? Preferably those that were or are higher handicappers? How often do you take lessons? How much time do you spend practicing between lessons? Also I don't want to know about self taught people, I'd like to hear from those that take and give lessons.

 

[pecky987]

i've always thought, that if after one lesson or session, for the most part, the student hasn't improved SOMETHING, then the lesson is a failure, and the instructor is to blame. now it may only be that they now know the swing is a circle, not a straight line, or they just learnt your supposed to hit the ball downwards. if something has improved, knowledge, technique application or mindset, then the teacher has done his job.

now as for how long for results to set in? depends on the student and their needs. if they are a 26 handi who throws the club like they dont want to hold it, and keeps hitting fat, and stays on his right foot loads, then with some more knowledge of how its supposed to be done, and some guided application, they should improve greatly, and quickly.

for the middle handicaps, say 13-18, it again depends on the needs. if the swing needs a major construction work and wholesale changes, this will take longer than someone who can hit it decent but just gets below the sweetspot a little and wants to get more to the inside.

these things have no real definitive answer, and its difficult to try and make one. but, i know this much. if the teacher knows what he is doing, and can apply it properly, then improving students shouldn't take too long. this does, however, require the student to continue the work they start with the instructor, and to practise them selves, they wont stay better without their own perspiration

my 2 pence

 

[Martee]

I would suggest that although we do it all the time but it is not really right IMO, and that is a lesson and scoring don't necessarily happen.

Let me try and be clear, if a golfer was chunking chip shots and got a lesson, he could go the whole round and still not score better, just not chunk any. Or say a golfer gets a lesson on better contact with the irons, again, he may go the entire round and make contact as never before, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will score better. Obviously both case, the golfer should have a better opportunity to score better, but scoring is more than just hitting the golf ball with a good swing.

IMO good instructors should have you executing correctly what you were working on while they are there. The question is will it take hold and will you remember to do it when they are not there. I for take notes during a lesson, ususally review it with the instructor to ensure I have it right. So when the instructor is not around and I know that what I am doing is not getting the same results with the instructor, I go to the notes. I found this has helped and preventing me from showing back up to the instructor doing the same thing he last saw me with that we were attempting to correct.

Sadly it seems that only a few students can report long term long lasting results from most good instructors. I don't know why this is cause even Brian has had student post here where they once were on track are now off track. It does seem that the better the instructor the longer it takes the golfer to get off track. Now this observation may be flawed since and I appologize ahead of time, no intent to pick on Brian, but I can only recall (maybe this is a senior moment upon my part) a few who have been to brian and have been solid long term. Many have had short term improvement but some seemed to have back slide. This back slide could be the golfer on his/her own attempting to improve further or make changes that haven't been the right thing to do. Maybe that is just the nature of the beast.

 

[d0n]

I understand what you're saying Martee. I was just wondering in general what others are experiencing.

 

[suns11111]

Consider golf instructors as building blocks. My experience with instructors is more or less losing money everytime (stupid money games!)......but very good experience. Working at a golf course, I have a little freedom playing with the pro(s). Actually watching him swing, manage his game, and understand what THEY are working on. Point- see if the instructor practices what he preaches. Remember its building blocks......the blocks will sometimes fall, pick up one block at a time and go from there........its a devilish mental game.

 

[suns11111]

Heres a good one, one of the best traits my professional at the course has.....hes always relaxed. Setups up, mini preshot swing (cocks wrists quick for his flatter swing).......then starts quitely singing a country song, then swings away. Funny?! no, cause I know all day he on and I aint pressing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

What is a good lesson, and what is good long-term teaching.

I have taught golf for 25 years.

This is what I know about this topic.

If I give a lesson, and I have at least an hour, and the student does not make a NOTICEABLY better golf swing and hit NOTICEABLY better golf shots—during the lesson—I have failed miserably.

This HAS TO BE accomplished WITHOUT any gimmicks or any band-aids.

Examples of a Gimmick: Hit balls with your right heel off the ground the whole swing, Look at the top of your visor at impact.

Gimmicks are something you wouldn't do playing golf. May be good for a drill, but doesn't count for me as "make a NOTICEABLY better golf swing and hit NOTICEABLY better golf shots."

Examples of Band-Aid: Golfer is a slicer, get them to grip it 45° closed at address. Golfers swing bottoms out too soon, get them to hang on their left side on the backswing.

Band-Aids OBVIOUSLY don't pass the eye-ball (Gordy Gahm) Test. They don't LOOK like more of a golfer, so....they don't pass the "make a NOTICEABLY better golf swing and hit NOTICEABLY better golf shots" test.​

My current success rate, using the above criteria, is approximately >95%.

Probably higher.

Long-term teaching is a different animal. It depends on what the long-term goals are.

Are they a 80 shooter that wants to get to scratch? Hard.

A junior golfer who shoots 95 and wants to play the LPGA tour? Harder

Are they a 95 shooter that wants to get to single digits? Medium Easy.

A young strong hacker that wants to shoot in the 80's? Simple​

The folks I work with on a long-term basis, do very well.

Lindsay Gahm started with me 7+ years ago as a tag-along to her brother's lessons. She had not broken 90 in a tournament two years ago. She shot in the 60's in tournaments twice this year and made first team All-State as a Sophomore.

Lindsay probably has taken a couple of 100 lessons and mini-lessons from me.

David Toms has won 27 million dollars+ as a pro. He took his first paid lesson from me in 1988, and his last in 2007. A few 100 hours of work.

Folks you get to see all the time are easy to fix, if you know what you are doing. You can fix your own mistakes.

When you see folks who see you once a year or so, Like David, or some of my "Tour Stop" clients, or folks who travel to see me once a year, are harder to fix. You are fixing thing they have gotten into themselves and other teachers have put in. Much harder.

I have always said I am the best live lesson giver I have ever seen. To date, this is still the case.

But, I have a long way to go. Perfection in teaching, like in playing golf, is unattainable. I try anyway.

I gave a lesson in Baton Rouge on Saturday. I had 100° fever. I had to keep my distance. In between coughing, I gave a pretty good two hour lesson.

The golfer/student made a NOTICEABLY better golf swing and hit NOTICEABLY better golf shots before I left. He called me this evening (one day later) and said it was even better today.

I could have helped him in 1985, or 1990, or '95, 2000, or 2005.

But I wouldn't have done as good as I did.

Why?

Constant improvement. Constant self-evaluating. Constant research.

That's why the "tag line" of the Brian Manzella Golf Academy is:

"Getting better everyday."

 

[Kevin Shields]

d0n, even if your instructor is the best in the world, he's still only as good as his student. Even if he gets your swing bottom the same every time and teaches you superior clubface control, it's up to you to go on the course and hit the shots. He can teach you every shot known to man around the green but can't hit them for you. I'm sure even Brian would say his best success stories are the students who applied the lessons the best. My point is dont think there is a set number of strokes (little or a lot) that you need to come down per week after lessons. Keep on absorbing the info and figure out how you are going to use that info in real course situations.

 

[suns11111]

Hey Don, forgot to really answer your question. As far as saving strokes after lessons, thats gonna be different for everyone. I am sure Brian would back this up with his lessons. But you take a lesson, master what is taught, but you start having other shots off line, this is very very very common. Hence building blocks. Next lesson should be to correct what was mastered before. Example-golferA never gets off right side and missing high and right, after lesson on alignment and weightshift, most missing could be left and low. Its not that the instructor is bad, but rid of one habit and how thousands of shots need to be unlearned.

 

[d0n]

I learn something every time I get a lesson and I feel my swing is better now than it has ever been. But it doesn't necessarily transfer into better scores. I've been stuck at an 18 handicap for the last 6 months. I decided to start working with my current instructor and each lesson it's like discovering a new treasure chest of golf information. He helps me fix atleast one thing each time. I guess my question is, when does it all come together. After a couple of weeks the new guy has me hitting the ball better, straighter, and longer than ever but my score last weekend didn't come down. I shot my standard 91. In defense of the round, I had 8 OOB or Water Hazard penalty strokes so that's a positive I guess.

I guess I was just wondering if all you other guys experienced similar things.

Thanks again guys!
Don

 

[otto6457]

Don

My .02 cents here.

While I am a single digit handicap and you are looking for input from middle to higher handicaps, my experience may be worthwhile.

Your score is much more closely tied to your short game than your long game or your swing. Even the best ball strikers miss greens and fairways. Scoring is from 100 yds in. My experience is that good scores go to those that get better the closer they get to the green. Knocking 4 putts off of your total number of putts per round will help your score more than four 300 yd drives. Chipping and pitching to inside of 3 feet makes your score go down.

I have taken A LOT of lessons, and several great ones from from Brian. My handicap has not changed much in the last several years. There has been a statistical improvement in my GIR's and fairways hit, and that has moved my handicap down a few points. But I still stay around 2.2-3.0 That is a big reason why my next lessons with Brian in March is going to include more short game work.

If you look at your last round of 91, how many fairways did you hit and how many greens did you hit. Did you have 36 or more putts for the round?

I am going to guess that you hit about 6 fairways, about 5 greens, and you had around 34 putts. (maybe a couple of 3-putts?) If I'm about right, that means you had 13 up and down opportunities. How many of those were converted with a pitch, or chip, and a one-putt? If you get up and down 50% of the time, your 91 will drop to a 85 with nothing else changed. Take away the two 3-putts and turn them into 2-putts, you shoot 83.

Keep in mind that the 8 OB's hurt you pretty bad, but with a solid short game, you might save a few bogeys and maybe drag a par out of one or two those OB's

Fixing your short game will immediately and permanently improve your score. When the long game is shaky, a solid short game keeps you from blowing up.

 

[Qball]

Here is a fairly generalized answer. As I went form an 18 hdcp to a 7 over the last 6 years. I would take a lesson about every 2 weeks for a couple of months, and practice in between during the winter. During that couple of months my game would suffer quite abit for first 6 weeks because I was always trying to use my "new" swing on the course, and had too many things running through my brain. By the last two weeks it would seem to come together and a nice little improvement would show up. Then I would spend the rest of that season continuing to work on the new items in my swing and by the end of the season I felt like my swing was better, I didn't think about it near as much, and my scores improved, maybe 2-3 points on my hdcp. Now when I take a lesson, the improvement in the technique comes a little quicker, but scores don't drop as easy.

 

[birdie_man]

Brian..............

In your ex-spear-EE-ence..............and speaking of mechanics.............what are some of the harder (or at least takes longer) things to fix?

(while I'm at it- how 'bout some of the easier?)

Harder- I am thinking uneducated hands and pivots..........uncentered contact??

 

[d0n]

Otto, I definitely know I need to work on the "ups and downs." I probably 3-putt one or two times a round. Fortunetly the wedges are working pretty dang good for me from 80 and in. Definitely leaving strokes on the table with putting and the occasional chip/pitch blunder.

For me, it's so demoralizing to get to the green in 3 or 4 on a par 4 because of pulled, sliced, duffed, or shanked shots. I wanted to work on ball striking because even if I could putt lights out, I doubt I could sink too many 1-2 putts from the tee box. Greens in regulation are a very low for me. If I've screwed the pooch on a hole and I'm hitting 4 from 40yds out (which does happen) I get so frustrated I can't focus on putting anyways... If I hit a tee shot in to a hazard, I will usually try an extravagant next shot that more time than not gets me in worse shape. Those dreaded 2nd shots are like playing Texas Hold'em. You flop a sucker straight and you know your opponent has a big pair or maybe trips. You know your odds aren't good but the one time that card hits and you make your straight - you're going to get a good pot. Usually a sucker straight will end up costing you a lot of money, so do these "extravagant next shots." Much like with poker, it's taking some time but I'm learning to play smarter but the lure to do take dumb risks is soooo great...

Interestingly enough, the new instructor told me at our last lesson that the swing is much improved and looks good for now. He wants to see some short game next time. So I think I'll take him up on that.

 

[otto6457]

dOn

I feel your pain. It's hard to face up and downs on what seems like every hole. It wears you out mentally and it's very difficult to focus on scoring. Ball striking is what makes the game fun. I love the big drive down the middle and the 5 iron to 10 feet from 195yds out. Everyone does. Obviously, your scoring will improve immensely when you are looking at a lot more birdie putts because you are on in regulation. If you keep working as hard as you are, your ball striking will become more consistent and your score will drop. It's frustrating now, but as you and your coach build a repeatable swing, it's going to get better. Just keep plugging along.

Plus, you can look at this situation in a positive light. The experience you are gaining by always having to get up and down is going to be very useful later on. I suggest that when you find yourself standing over yet another up and down for bogey, or even double bogey, reset your attitude. Look at your next shot as an up and down for par. Make this next shot meaningful. I know this sounds trite, and when you are standing 40 yds away from the green, on a short par 4 that is one of the easiest holes on the course, and you are lying 4, it's darn near impossible to feel like the next shot is going make any difference at all. But it does. Scoring is about getting the ball in the hole, and this a chance to practice the most important part of the game. Getting the ball in the hole.

I was lucky as a kid because my dad let me go to the golf course with him when I was pretty young. He didn't let me tee off very often because the course was busy. But a lot of time when he would be on the green or pretty close to the green, he would throw a ball down next to his and challenge me to beat him into the hole. He would hit first, then me. All the way to the hole. He would needle me if he won, and he would laugh out loud if I won. And he taught me where the game really is.

Sometimes, when my home course is almost empty, I will play a game where I always take one or two less club into every green. I change my scoring to up and downs. The only score I write down is + or -. Plus means I got up and down. Negative means I didn't. My goal is to have 18 pluses. I've never done it, but it's a fun game.

Don't get frustrated now. You are on your way to having a better swing and your score is going to get better. It's better to wait a few years when you feel like your swing is not too bad and you shoot 90!! LOL!!!

Seriously.....good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Leek]

Don- I understand how you feel. I think how much your score improves is dependent on a number of things: GIR, up & down etc. in terms of sheer stats.

Do you understand how to manage your way around the course? You mention several OBs and balls in hazards per round. Learn to take what you have and never put your ball in a place from which you can't recover. Learn what your capabilities are and play your round with those capabilities in mind. If your standard shot is a hook and there is water or OB left, how do you manage it?

Then next is short game. I remember a story about a young tour pro playing in a tournament telling a story about a round with Ben Crenshaw.

The young pro talked about how "well" he struck the ball. Outdrove Crenshaw all day. Hit 15 greens in regulation to Crenshaw's 5 or 6. Finally he got to their scores. The young pro was 2 under (70) and pretty happy. Crenshaw with his 5 or 6 GIRs? 4 under (68).

All a teacher can do is help you learn how to propel the ball better, whether it's long game or short game. YOU have to learn through practice how to get it in the hole.

 

[d0n]

Otto, thanks again for your feedback.

Leek, course management is something I've been trying to work on. The problem with course management, my shots are (or have been) unpredictable. I may hit a great drive only to play the same hole the next round and pull the drive into the ditch the next time. I may have a nice easy 150yd shot with nothing in my way and hit it right to the flag one time, the next I'll end up in the bunker or top it 30yds down the fairway.

On certain tight holes, I'll use a hybrid or 3iron to increase my chances of keeping the ball in play. This works some times but again I'll get the yipes or something and top the ball or something stupid. Then panic mode comes in to play I let it all hang out for that magnificent recovery shot that usually gets me into even worse crap.

The problem with me and course management, I simply haven't figured out what's going to happen when the ball leaves the club face. I try to take hazards out of play but sometimes my mind and club aren't on the same plane. I probably need to practice focusing more but "strong the force is NOT in this jedi.."

The long clubs usually get me in a lot of trouble. I've tried to even play a round leaving all my longer clubs at home and using a 6i to tee off. Shot a 93. Though working with the new instructor, the driver, hybrids, and long irons are straighter and more playable than ever.

I figure it'll come with time. Thanks again guys!
Don

 

[pecky987]

d0n, what i've found, when i feel i have ne idea how the ball is going to go, the best way i find is to think

A.) 'i am a X handicap (whatever your target is - mine was 9) and i AM going to hit this like a X handicap.

B.) think that you are going to hit every shot perfectly. then, because you're going to hit it perfectly, where would you like it to go? you say you hit miraculous recovery shots. i always found this, and its usually because you focus less on technique and more on the target, which is all that matters in the end.

stop thinking about what the ball might do, and concentrate more on where you want it to go. hope this helps