Fowler Stuff (now with p5 Manzella Answers)
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Brian Manzella
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Here is a little explanation of the pics:
1. Fowler's position at PIC 2 with his torso rotated back to address-like angle. No, the club didn't shut going back....
2. Fowler's actual end of takeaway position
3. Fowler's position at PIC 2 and his top of the backswing position. He rotated the left arm, the left shoulder, bent the right and lifted the arms up.
4. Fowler's position at the top of the backswing and PIC 6 his position halfway down. He retained the rotated left arm, some of the left shoulder rotation, some of the bent the right and dropped the arms down BUT NEVER STRAIGHT DOWN.
5. Fowler's actual end of takeaway position and his position halfway down. Lots of similar elements, which in an average golfer would NOT be the case at all.
6. Fowler's actual position halfway down.
7. Both arms straight. Great position that many theorist abhor.
1. Fowler's position at PIC 2 with his torso rotated back to address-like angle. No, the club didn't shut going back....
2. Fowler's actual end of takeaway position
3. Fowler's position at PIC 2 and his top of the backswing position. He rotated the left arm, the left shoulder, bent the right and lifted the arms up.
4. Fowler's position at the top of the backswing and PIC 6 his position halfway down. He retained the rotated left arm, some of the left shoulder rotation, some of the bent the right and dropped the arms down BUT NEVER STRAIGHT DOWN.
5. Fowler's actual end of takeaway position and his position halfway down. Lots of similar elements, which in an average golfer would NOT be the case at all.
6. Fowler's actual position halfway down.
7. Both arms straight. Great position that many theorist abhor.
Todd Dugan
New
Great extention of the hands away from the body in pic 7
Dariusz J.
New member
No.7 position is good ? IMO, it is horrible and is typical for a crossover release armsy swings = the most timing-dependent. When you look at best ballstrikers their arms straightens but not so early after impact and not with so closed shoulders after impact (hips too closed as well).
Cheers
Cheers
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Fowler has anything but a crossover release. ROFL.
Dariusz J.
New member
So what kind of release is it ? Definitely closest to crossover of all three types.
Cheers
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Like I said....
The comments out there in swing theory land about Fowler (I'm talking centered pivot swing theory land) is deafening.
Crickets....
A big RIGHT LEANER and a release even Dariusz hates, and they are all talking about junior tournaments out there.
I hope the kid is leading money winner.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
A really good one.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Dariusz, I'm assuming the crossover release that you don't like is one that is used in assisting the squaring of the face, in which Fowler does not IMO. If there's any crossover, it is after impact. And he only does it with the longer clubs from what I've seen.
Dariusz J.
New member
Well, do not hate me but my answer would be: "a really good one for a pivot stalling armsy goat humper who probably has enormous gift of dealing with timing issues".
The crossover release happens when the period of face squareness to the path is relatively short pre- to post-impact, i.e. when the rate of closure is the fastest. Of course there are hardly pure examples but Fowler is definitely closest to crossover type even with irons (what was not tough to deduct from pos. no. 7, BTW). Crossover of forearms must occur somewhere in the swing but only with the crossover release type it happens so quickly after impact which is an obvious sign for possible timing issues.
Cheers
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Great swing.
Hips turn to a point and the arms push off. Right arm throw VERY athletic. If he doesn't listen to people who think he needs to change ANYTHING (like Sergio did), he will be a big star for 20 years.
Timing issues??
What does he have to time? He gets him self in a great spot halfway down to just throw the sh!+ out of it.
I love this debate.
puttmaster
New
Whatever you want to call it ... watching that clubhead work is a thing of beauty.
JThompson
New
In other recent threads (and also on Michael Jacob's youtube videos) it has been discussed that recent scientific data suggest that holding off release (or trying to consciously delay arm crossover) reduces efficiency of the release. I believe Ricky is getting to the proper position at last parallel to where he can rotate (with all of his might) the handle of the club through the ball and achieve close to maximum club head speed. My bet is he has developed this release over time because of its maximum energy output with ease of timing.
Ricky has publicly said he has had very little in the way of formal swing instruction. He is a self proclaimed "feel player". Sound familiar **cough**bubba**cough**. It has been printed that his former swing coach (who has passed on) taught him at an early age to play on feel. Not technical swing thoughts. I believe it shows. I doubt a top player receiving modern pop golf instruction would develop such a dynamic powerful release.
If you guys have some question as to whether or not this type of release can be acceptably repeatable check this video out. Right hand release, very powerful and very repeatable.
Ricky has publicly said he has had very little in the way of formal swing instruction. He is a self proclaimed "feel player". Sound familiar **cough**bubba**cough**. It has been printed that his former swing coach (who has passed on) taught him at an early age to play on feel. Not technical swing thoughts. I believe it shows. I doubt a top player receiving modern pop golf instruction would develop such a dynamic powerful release.
If you guys have some question as to whether or not this type of release can be acceptably repeatable check this video out. Right hand release, very powerful and very repeatable.
welshdentist
New
The ball loves it for sure.....
I was worried he wouldn't break through, but win abroad seemed to do him the world of good.
I like watching him swing......seems like a good kid too...
Dariusz J.
New member
Clubface closure. The only one scenario I can see when timing issues are out of equation is that the pivot stalls somehow automatically letting the arms be thrown and, as another automatic consequence, crossover release happens. But it is rather improbablebecause of some mechanical issues -- instead, how much easier is to imagine a release that is pivot subdued and rate of clubface closure delayed in time.
Noone talks about conscious holding something off. It would be as ridiculous as handle dragging. Just better pivot makes automatically crossover release tougher to happen because of simple biophysics. The better pivot the better (read: more timing proof release). It is not a rocket science.
It's more like slap-hinge release which is indeed much easier to time than crossover one.
Cheers
JThompson
New
Please explain where in the video above does Rickie's pivot stall? When I watch the video (admittedly, my swing discernment isn't to the level of most on this forum) I see a powerful shoulder and hip rotation that starts the downswing imparting significant "toe up deflection". Continues uncoiling and opening until just before impact allowing very powerful pivot chain snap.
I would argue that Rickie's right hand and wrist action are almost the same as Jennie Finch's. Rickie's right wrist is unbending and extending toward the ball. His arms don't cross over until well after impact. His release is not a crossover release. Very little/none of his power comes from the arms moving toward crossing over. His arms crossing over after impact is a consequence of his powerful right wrist action into impact. Other tour players have a later crossover because they do not generate nearly the speed from their right wrist unbending as Rickie does.
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Dariusz J.
New member
Just before entering the impact zone. His hips are barely open and his shoulders even a bit closed even just after impact. It is a pivot stall. These who do not stall have a lot more open hips and shoulders open at impact, let alone post-impact. I do not have time to toy with pictures but you may do it alone -- compare Hogan (the best pivot ever) and Fowler approaching, at and post-impact and you will understand eveything in a milisecond.
OK, if you know better...for me you can even argue that he use push release; as said, I have no time for silly disputes, sorry.
It is a bit less crossover but obviously still closer to it than e.g. to push release. Ogilvy is also a pivot staller and goat humper although his shoulders are a bit more open at impact delaying the crossover a bit more and having his humera a bit more pivot-subdued. Nothing special at all as well. Watch his DTL and compare to Fowler's around impact. Then compare them both to Hogan.
Cheers
magicmarker
New
A golf swing can be GREAT without looking like the "model" swing. He plays golf, not golf swing, and I personally love to watch him swing while he does it.
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